Rare Mauser 714

[alvin]

Some people call this "Mauser 711". But 711 was not this. 711 was Nickl Schnellfeuer on Stoeger's catalog.

Navy Arms sells a re-assembled variation using imported parts from China, they call their product "TU-711". The model numbering probably also coming from old (but wrong) classification of 711.

Another importer, Federal Ordnance had similar line of products. Interesting enough, they named their assembled parts gun "714". Logically, I felt 714 was probably correct. Historically, this variation happened after 712 (i.e. Westinger Schnellfeuer), not before 712.

One seller is selling this. I made him an attractive offer, and he accepted it. Here is the gun, just arrived. Should have arrived earlier, but the damned storm delayed delivery. I was sleepless last night due to FedEx tracking showing no change in almost 30 hours. Lost?? But finally, it's here safely. The production volume of 714 is unknown.

[sheepherder]

Very nice! No stock/holster? Not cut for stock/holster...or shaved off???

[alvin]

No stock coming with it. No slot on the back of the grip.

Joe Schroeder recorded two samples: 84672, and 88253. One of them does not have slot on the grip. But he did not say which one.

Erickson said "all known examples are not cut for a stock". And he presented 84672, which was in Robert H collection. Combining these two pieces of info together, 88253 must have a slot on the grip, and 84672 does not have that slot.

Personally, I don't feel it's converted. More than half a dozen super nice 1930s went though my hand, I am so familiar with its finish. The finish looks all original. Inside the frame, there is no sign of welding either. Same with the grip. The darn thing is absolutely new inside, but there are a few handling scratches oustide. Bore is like new.

The s/n of this one is 84655, that's a good sign too. All known examples are numbered in Schnellfeuer s/n (not in 1930 range). And, it's so close to the sample presented by Erickson.

The lock frame is 1930 style. Not Schnellfeuer style. And it's numbered to the gun. I did not see any sign of renumbering.

Finally, if converting a Schnellfeuer to this one, that "raw material" Schnellfeuer must be new enough. Schnellfeuer is not a cheap gun. Which professional would spend so much effort to convert, then sell cheaper than Schnell?

Of course, that's not scientific. May X ray tell anything?

[Sergio Natali]

So far I don't even think I've ever seen one yet.
Probably mine is a bit of a naive question, still I do wonder why we keep importing "reassembled variations" made with imported parts from China!
With all the respect, but I think that instead of polluting our market, the Chinese should keep all these fakes for themselves.

Sergio

[alvin]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

instead of polluting our market, the Chinese should keep all these fakes for themselves.

Each type of gun has its buyer. Both Navy Arms TU-711 and Federal Ordnance 714 are parts guns. They are not C&R, but they are cheap. So those guns have those guns' market.

===

Erickson estimated only 10 of these were made. I am not sure though. One member of gunboards.com (the main board) posted a picture of his example in 2011:

Here is the link: http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...dle-Mauser-711

Above gunboard example in the link, s/n 84658, which is only 3 away from mine, was sold later in a RIAC session.

All three examples that I have seen (84655, 84658, 84672) share a common feature -- all of them are like new. Why?? Is that a valid question, statistically?

84655 came to me without a magazine. Probably that would give a hint on these guns' condition -- I guess Stoeger sold these expensive pistols finally, but no magazine came with the gun.. Please note 84658's magazine bottom does not have Mauser stamp, it's not a Mauser made magazine. It's must be an add-on by the owner.

84672 (Robert H collection) has a 20-shot magazine. But this type of magazine is not numbered, how to tell...

[alvin]

For completeness, here is 84672:

[Mauser 712]

Hello Alvin,

There is no such Mauser C96 pistol named 'Model 714' with reference to the Stoeger catalogs. The label 'Removable Magazine Model 1930' in the Erickson book is incorrect in my opinion because the side rails are reinforced instead of milled, when the latter existed on the Model 1930. Therefore, it would be better to label this pistol as a 'M1934 Removable Magazine'. I believe that these pistols were only made for the US market since there was some restrictions starting to occur after 1932 regarding the sale of Schnellfeuers.

To determine if it is factory genuine would require a careful internal examination in spite of the earlier/normal trigger and no stock slot - which would be correct characteristics for such a pistol in semi-automatic. Despite having the exterior characteristics of a normal Schnellfeuer, I wonder why the left center panel is not like the right one which would have been normal to produce at the factory?

Back in 1997, I had examined the one in the book which is in Hogan's collection, but I did not have the time to disassemble it; I just took left and right side photos. For your information, removable the magazine is a normal 10-shot magazine.

Best regards,
Albert

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Mauser 712

I wonder why the left center panel is not like the right one which would have been normal to produce at the factory?

I think I have a theory for this.

Say, a customer (e.g. A F Stoeger) ordered a few semi-auto only version of Schnellfeuer as dealer samples, what would Mauser do?

They would not change a lot on their machining setup, that cost too much. They would skip some machining steps. There are some frame cuts on regular Schnellfeuer being functional -- such as grip slot (for attaching stock), hole on the left of the frame (for firing control switch), internal slot (for firing control bar), the machining steps for those functional cuts were simply skipped.

There is another difference. Regular Schnellfeuer has a wide trigger which is like the trigger of Mauser Pocket. It's much wider than 1930 trigger. The trigger opening on this gun was probably made on a 1930 production line -- the opening is narrow to fit the narrow trigger.

External milling change to make left and right panels same? No, because that change that would require change on machining setup. That cannot be done via skipping on Schnellfeuer production line. And that cannot be done on 1930 production line either. So, no.

At the firing control switch hole's position, no one shows a picture of what internal looks like in decades... probably people worried revealing too much would be a problem. But there is a 1930 style internal recess area, big. That's functional -- any sand or dirt sneaking into the steel shell would have a place to stay. Very smart design. But with this recess, if there were a hole being welded, it would be very hard to hide it, due to the internal surface is NOT flat. Creating the pattern nicely mixing into the neighboring area would take considerable amount of effort. But I did not see any sign.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Mauser 712

I believe that these pistols were only made for the US market since there was some restrictions starting to occur after 1932 regarding the sale of Schnellfeuers.

One of the major importers [Navy Arms, Federal Ordnance, I don't recall who] had a batch of 712 Schnellfeuers but could not legally sell them [BATF vetoed request] so they had a 'C96' (or M30) gripframe made up which could not take 712 full-auto internals and only fire semi-auto. Brand new, good machining, very good finish. Sold them all, with rest of parts sets refinished as well (and modified for semi). I don't recall now if magazines were removable or fixed [internal]. Interesting but 're-manufactured', not restored. Limited collector interest.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Brand new, good machining, very good finish.

Well, probably depends on compare with whom. Neither Navy Arms, nor Federal Ordnance are regular gun makers. I would say, their machining, finish, etc are even less than Norinco's factory. At least, Norinco's labor cost was low, so they could afford spending more hours on their products without any problem. But that's not true for small mills of Navy and Federal, they don't have expertise in gun making domain, and they could not afford many hours on their products either. So, their final products have nothing standing out in terms of machining nor finish IMO. Quality is way lower than Norinco M213 9mm Tokarev.

If it's not for looking, then, it better performs well in range? After all, it's a gun. If it performs, I will still praise it. Nope. I shot one example 9mm in range, it could not even throw out 10 rounds smoothly. For those rounds indeed flied out, I could not find where they went. So, it's still for looking... but really nothing attractive on it to look at.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by alvin

Well, probably depends on compare with whom. Neither Navy Arms, nor Federal Ordnance are regular gun makers. I would say, their machining, finish, etc are even less than Norinco's factory.

No, they didn't make them in-house; they farmed out. I don't recall to whom, or how well they performed. They did make several variations; carbine [fixed stock]; removable mag; fixed mag. The article i read was in monthly magazine, not SGN. Pics looked nice.

[alvin]

Yes. Federal Ordnance Carbine was M713 -- it was converted from M1930.

Here is a Norinco made frame. This frame was better done. On the left side five characters says "Selbstlader Pistole". Rumor saying one type of old Chinese copy had that marking, but I have never seen an old one like that. Anyway, "Selbstlader" specificly refers to Broomhandle in Chinese language. Other pistols, regardless being a semi-auto or not, did not carry this name.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12857499#

Another interesting thing was... historically, both Spanish and Chinese copied Mauser. But I only heard Mauser cursing Spanish for doing that, but never heard Mauser cursing Chinese for more complete copying behavior.. probably they considered Spanish copy being a competition, but Chinese copy being a free advertisement in the marketplace?? God knows.

[jcoe]

Is this another one? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...=465110899#PIC

[alvin]

Originally Posted by jcoe

Is this another one? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...=465110899#PIC

This should be the one. It's sold to me in store. I don't understand why seller still leaves the ad there. If someone win it, how could it be delivered... unless he has another one for sale. Highly unlikely though. But who knows,,,, Erickson estimated ten and saw three, plus #84658, and plus this #84655, that's five. Even plus #88253 that Joe S saw, that's six. There are still four left. He may have another one.

Anyway,,, if this is another one, I will give it a try again to get a pair. If it's the same one, no problem for me either.

====

[Edit] Albert has one on facebook in 1930 s/n range (#868567), and Sturgess had a pair of reblued in 5xxxx came from Brazil (#50740, #50741). Those three are a little bit odd. Even adding those three in, the total is nine, still have one left.

https://www.facebook.com/Imperial.Ar...57759317617964

http://jamesdjulia.com/item/lot-3213...th-case-52194/

[alvin]

The more I review 50740 and 50741 from Sturgess collection, the more I feel they are fakes. The grip frame simply does not look correct from outside. Julia auction description writer was obviously a domain expert, and checked many interior details, but probably he/she ignored outside.

Imagine if someone have a pair of genuine Schnellfeuer barrels, 50740/50741, then, using a newly made grip frames (e.g. Navy Arms product, or Norinco product, or Federal Ordnance product, whatever) as "raw material", polishing inside, modify a little bit outside.. then, that would explain this pairs weird exterior appearance.

While assessment expert stereotypely thinking the only alternative possibility was modification from a Mauser made Schnellfeuer grip frame, very busy on checking internal welding (not finding any, due to they did not exist), he/she could easily ignore its exterior panel shape, marking position, magazine well transition area, etc, and none looks correct on this pair.

Plus, after all those "arsenal" work, hiding this work under a "restoration" umbrella and carefully aging the surface.. that would make perfect sense in this scenario. And, the wood box?? That's one-of-a-kind, anyone can define how it should look like. Plate? cannot be easier.

In short, 50740 and 50741 can be phased out from this variation.

[conehammer]

Originally Posted by alvin

They would not change a lot on their machining setup, that cost too much. They would skip some machining steps. There are some frame cuts on regular Schnellfeuer being functional -- such as grip slot (for attaching stock), hole on the left of the frame (for firing control switch), internal slot (for firing control bar), the machining steps for those functional cuts were simply skipped.

You certainly studied Broomhandles much more than most Alvin but that's quite a statement. We can't know what it would have cost Mauser to make changes to their machining sequence. I can't say I'm intimate with the sort of machining procedures of the period they followed as I've only seen general photos of Mauser's assembly and fitting areas. Jigs/ fixtures/ machining templates could be modified/ cloned with changes if the numbers were deemed worth it.

You've assembled quite a collection by now Alvin, didn't you also add a 6 and 20 shot to your stable? Were you the guy that snagged that beautiful Turkish Contract piece a year or so ago?

My collecting has been dormant for quite some while but I'm thinking of dipping my toes into the pool again. I'm only interested in Broomhandles but I'm not necessarily on a quest for perfection.

Jerry

[Sergio Natali]

I'd like to now more myself, but so far I've not seen many books about Broomhandles around and in the Net there is not much either...

Sergio

[alvin]

Originally Posted by conehammer

You've assembled quite a collection by now Alvin, didn't you also add a 6 and 20 shot to your stable? Were you the guy that snagged that beautiful Turkish Contract piece a year or so ago?

Got Joe's 20CH. He had a few 20CHs, but only this one being original. I bet he had another nicer original one, probably sold privately to his friend. 6CH came from a California collector. He violated law and court forced him selling all guns. So I got his 6CH, a very nice original one.

I was not the guy on the Sturgess Turkish though. I handled the gun in the preview, it looks nice. Book value of Turkish in that shape was about $10k, I knew it would not come at $10k, if stretching to $12k, plus BP and tax (I had to pay tax), I would have to pay $15k. That's hard. So my max was $12k and stopped there. But other people pushed it to $27.5k, plus BP that would be more than $30k. Not because I did not like it, but I really could not compete. And, at this price level,,, it does not have matching stock.

Actually, for Turkish CH, it does not have to look that nice. A 40% or higher one will be OK with me. Turkey was a poor country, guns falling into Turkish hands going lower condition was normal. But I have not met one yet. Joe had a poor one sold later on gunbroker.com via 3rd party, but that one had mixed parts, and grip frame was damaged, so I bypassed it. 1000 Turkish were made, its rarity is like 6-shot, Persian, and carbine. Probably fewer survived, but there must be more. Just need to wait an appropriate one.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by luger.parabellum

I'd like to now more myself, but so far I've not seen many books about Broomhandles around and in the Net there is not much either...

Sergio

I heard Antaris is working on a new book in this domain. His existing book on Astra pistol (the newer thick one) is a great book too.

[alvin]

This model actually appears on Stoeger's catalog. Attached is page 159 of 1939 catalog. At the bottom of the page, Stoeger mentioned the actual model for sale does not have firing control switch as shown in their ad photo. And, there is no stock listed for sale either. That should put the final nail on the coffin of "existence of M711". On the catalog, this is called "Genuine Mauser Twenty Shot 7.63m/m Pistol", but they were a little bit lazy and used an early Westinger M712 photo for advertisement illustration purpose. So, the historical existence and the configuration is real.

For year of production, more researching is needed.