Police Lugers without sear safeties

[Don M]

Many collectors are under the impression that all Lugers that were in police service have or had sear (Schiwy) safeties installed. When they run across an example with a police property marking on the front grip strap but no evidence that the gun ever had a sear safety, they are perplexed and some suspect that the property marking has been faked. I have explained this apparent anomaly in HWIS but, since it is somewhat spread out through the book, I thought I would summarize the information here.

During the Weimar era, the Schutzpolizei (Schupo) consisted of two distinct branches – the Revierpolizei (precinct police) and the Bereitschaftspolizei (reserve police). The Revierpolizisten were the “beat cops” who patrolled the cities to maintain order. They operated out of precinct stations, generally had at least about eight years of experience, were qualified for Einzeldienst (independent service), lived at home and were permitted to marry and have a family. These were the legacy of the Imperial-era Schutzmänner. During the first few years of the Weimar era, these were known in Prussia as the Revierhauptmannschaft.

The Bereitschaftspolizei was organized more along military lines and primarily served as riot police, somewhat similar to Special Weapons and Tactics (S.W.A.T.) teams in the U.S. They were the legacy of the short-lived Sicherheitspolizei, a military-style police organized in 1919 and officially disbanded in 1920 at the insistence of the Allies. The Bereitschaftspolizei was used to quell riots, control strikes and to generally reinforce the precinct police. These were younger men, organized into companies (Hundertschaften), who lived in barracks and were not allowed to marry during their seven to twelve-year period of initial service. Graduates of the police schools (Polizeischulen) were initially assigned to these units. Following service in this branch, policemen were eligible for transfer to the precinct police, rural police or civil service.

Shortly after the Nazis came to power, the Reich and Prussian Interior Ministries issued an order on 30 August 1933 that Schiwy and Walther (magazine) safeties be added to all Lugers belonging to the Revierpolizei, including the Wasserschutzpolizei (Waterways Police), and the Landjägerei, including the Rheinpolizei (Rhine River Police). This order did not include the Lugers issued to the Bereitschaftspolizei.

In 1933 and 1934, the Bereitschaftspolizei were separated from the Revierpolizei, designated as Landespolizei (State Police), and received additional military training. In 1935 and 1936, they were either transferred to the military or organized as Police Battalions. These Police Battalions were subsequently used in occupied countries after the start of WWII and some were guilty of horrendous atrocities.

From the above, it is evident that Lugers with Weimar police markings on the front grip strap but no Schiwy or Walther safeties once belonged to Bereitschaftspolizei units. They were exempted from the 1933 order because it was known that they would end up in the military which did not use these devices.

[alvin]

Don, one quick question. Sounds like Schiwy and Walther should both come together, or should be none (on Bereitschaftspolizei) on police guns. Two or Zero.

If a gun has only Schiwy but not Walther frame cut, could it be valid? Thanks.

[Don M]

Originally Posted by alvin

If a gun has only Schiwy but not Walther frame cut, could it be valid? Thanks.

It definitely can be valid. The Walther safety was determined to be a bad idea rather quickly. While some of the police units such as the Landjägerei obeyed the order to the letter and installed both safeties, there is evidence suggesting that some others opted not to install the Walther safety, even in the period 1934-36. While I have not seen the document, I understand that orders were issued in 1937 to stop installing them and to disable or remove those which were installed.

I have largely ignored the Walther safety in my research because its presence or absence says very little about whether a Luger belonged to the police. The exceptions are those few instances in which the receiver was replaced or is missing. If the frame bears evidence of a Walther safety, I assume the original upper had a Schiwy safety.

[alvin]

Thanks Don. Another question.

From police unit marking on the gun, is it possible to tell the gun belong to Bereitschaftspolizei ? .....

If I understand correctly, it's the other way around. From no Schiwy and "S. ...." marking, you know it's Bereitschaftspolizei. Not from the marking alone, right?

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Sorry. Try to re-elaborate the question: can Bereitschaftspolizei be told from marking alone?

[Don M]

Originally Posted by alvin

Can Bereitschaftspolizei be told from marking alone?

The short answer is "Sometimes." It depends on which state the marking is from (Prussia, Saxony, etc.) and also when the marking was stamped. For example, if it is a Type 2 Prussian Schupo mark (conforming to the 1922 Prussian marking instructions), one can usually tell from the format. If it is Type 3 (conforming to the 1932 order), it is often not possible. Other states had different markings so the answer differs for them.

If you really want to get into this, I suggest a close reading of HWIS. There is really no simple answer to the general question.

[alvin]

Thanks again. I bought a copy of HWIS and read the first chapter. I understood it's necessary to use lots of German terms to describe German government branches.....but so many long German words on paper dizzled my head and I had to stop. Will try again.

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For example, "Bereitschaftspolizei", not an easy word to remember.

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That's my problem. Need time.

[Jasta2]

I was having the same problem (still do). A local teacher who spoke German said the best was was to start at the end of the long word, then break off each sub word and say only that then add the word before that and so on untill you say each as it's own word then run them together to say it correctly. My trouble is I am not sure as to where to break them down. Like
'Bereitschaftspolizei' would that be Bereit-schafts-polizei? I'd better get 'Rosseta Stone' on German!
Bill

[Edward Tinker]

In regards to police safeties.

*** I have seen handfuls of police guns that are unit marked but no sear or mag safety

*** I have seen hundreds of police guns with sear and magazine safeties

*** I have seen even more police guns with sear safeties only

*** I have never, ever seen a police gun with a magazine safety and NO sear safety.


This is attributed to sear safeties being required for a much longer period of time, and also that at the begining of install, sear and magazine safeties were required, and then mag safeties were discontinued, yet sear safeties were still required.


Ed

[Don M]

Originally Posted by alvin

For example, "Bereitschaftspolizei", not an easy word to remember.

Amen! Almost like reading War and Peace.

Bereitschafts = reserve or standby

[alvin]

I am re-reading the book. Please allow me to use this oppertunity to ask a question about Germany. When Kaiserreich was established in 1871, Prussian's King became the Emperor. What were the new job of other three Kings (Bavaria, Saxony, and Wüttemburg)? Each state retained its own national goverment, did other Kings keep the King position, or "downgrade" to Prince, or some other title?

Sorry, I know it's not directly police Luger oriented question, but chapter 1 is about German history....

[Don M]

The sovereigns of each state retained their titles. The following article gives more information on the role of the Empire vis-a-vis the constituent states: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constit..._German_Empire.

[suum cuique]

Originally Posted by Jasta2

I was having the same problem (still do). A local teacher who spoke German said the best was was to start at the end of the long word, then break off each sub word and say only that then add the word before that and so on untill you say each as it's own word then run them together to say it correctly. My trouble is I am not sure as to where to break them down. Like
'Bereitschaftspolizei' would that be Bereit-schafts-polizei? I'd better get 'Rosseta Stone' on German!
Bill

It is hard to "break down" the word if you can't recognize the word at all. Bereitschafts-Polizei.
Bereitschaft is translated: Readiness.
"Stand by"police, which can be alarmed in a very short time.
Bereitschaftspolizei will be normaly in charge of:
Demonstrators in a large scale, large events, soccer games with alot of hooligans, etc.
There are several other "Polizei" branches and "names", too.

Kriminalpolizei=police in plain cloth, doing criminal investigations
Landespolizei=State police,
Bundespolizei=Federal police,
(Former "Bundesgrenzschutz" Federal Border Police)
Grenzpolizei=Border police (old term)
Feuerpolizei=Firepolice (old term) even had own uniforms 33-45
Verkehrspolizei=Traffic police, (white police hats)
Bahnpolizei= Police in charge for railroad related matters,
(now integrated within the Bundespolizei).
Sittenpolizei=Police in charge of sexual crimes, (old term)
Ordnungspolizei=Rural police (does not exist anymore)
Wasserschutzpolizei=police in charge on rivers, etc.
Volkspolizei=DDR-police (East German police)
Feldjaeger=Military police (a word without "Polizei")
Feldjaeger belong to the military, not to the German police.

Maybe this information is somehow useful.

[alvin]

Thanks Andy. I printed your list out on a card putting in my pocket. Will review them often.

[Jasta2]

Thanks Andy. I think this German speaking teacher was not so much relating to me a words meaning, but more how to 'try' to sound it out. Not easy for this boy raised in the south. For that matter, I have been told that sometimes I cannot speak english correctly!

[Don M]

I should have mentioned above that many Lugers with police school markings also do not have sear or mag safeties. I'm not real sure of the story behind this.