Heard a Rumor

MauserLugers · 12-28-2003, 09:20 PM

Have friends that go to Germany a couple of times a year and they tell me that at the last show they attended there was a large batch of magazines for sale that had no serial number on them, S/42 replacement code, and an E/63 acceptance mark. These are recent reproductions that they are literally making at this time and are very good and very hard to tell from the originals. I was told that if you know what to look for and especially if you have a real one that you can tell the difference. Just a bit of information for you to consider..... Bill

drbuster · 12-28-2003, 11:13 PM

Wow!!! What does that "rumor" do to the buyer of such a magazine on e-bay (#2212280066)? The princely amount of $455 changed hands for this magazine? If more magazines with these markings show up, one would see support for that "rumor". Until then, we are all on widening and deepening quicksand with "rare" items.

Pete Ebbink · 12-29-2003, 12:24 AM

Here is the recent e-Bay link...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=36049

I, too, thought it looked way too new and was leary. "ToggleTop" made a similar posting in another thread.

I also wondered why folks would want to buy "un-numbered" magazines...???

If this one on e-Bay is/was real, was it an amourer's replacement...that gets numbered in the field upon issuance...?

Regards,

Pete...

G.T. · 12-29-2003, 12:54 AM

Hi to all! I've studied and worked on a ton of Mauser mags in the past 20+ years, and I've studied them both inside and out... I am especially critical when it comes to manufacturing processes.... every part has it's own distinct signature as to how it was produced, and why it was done especially that way.... I looked at the mag. that was auctioned on ebay as closely as the pictures supplied would let me...... and, IF the magazine shell is a reproduction, then it is of the highest quality possible, and as far as I can tell, exact in every detail.... the mag. bottom is another matter entirely.... all of the Mauser cast bottoms that I have seen are somewhat different then the bottom pictured, first off, the Mauser bottoms I have seen display a slight but definite radius on the bottom edges of the bottom for better relief from the mold! Also, the outside edge radius on the knobs of the ebay offered mag. are somewhat smaller and sharper then what I am used to... and last, i have never seen a mag. bottom with both the S/42 & the E/63 together??? This is a collector thing, and they may exist that way... I just have never seen it.... All else looks real to me.... I would sure like to have that mag., but i'm glad I didn't bid on it! All the above is my opinion only... Best to all! Till.....Lat'r ....GT

Imperial Arms · 12-29-2003, 01:34 AM

This magazine is too good to be true! In my opinion, no magzine will show such a perfect consistent appearance after 60+ years even if it was wrapped in wax paper, such as the brown type found in some original pistol boxes. It is natural for any metal or finish to slightly discolor or take on a slight shade or fade with time.

Based on the comments that G.T. has mentioned, I would say that the magazine is a superb reproduction.

Albert

Vlim · 12-29-2003, 10:47 AM

Hi,

Some detective work done,

VEB Ernst ThÃ?Â¤lmann, was a conglomerate of Suhl based companies in former east germany. Went bankrupt in 2002 and seems to have been split up into a number of 'new old companies'. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere tools/supplies turned up that enabled someone to either produce new magazines or construct them from new old stock.

Some interesting links to this company: Simson and Haenel...

Perhaps some of our German members can shed light on this company and the new companies it spawned?

RP · 12-29-2003, 11:44 AM

I was also interested in this magazine until I noticed the proof mark is a "straight-wing" eagle/63. Since the mag tube appears to be nickel plated, not blued, I do not believe this mag to be correct. A "drooped-wing" eagle/63 is the correct proof for a "nickel-plated" military S/42 variation--please advise.

Frank · 12-29-2003, 12:54 PM

Randy, nice work, I noticed that when I saw it on eBay. There were no stick wing eagle 63 magazine bottoms in nickeled tubes, at least that I am aware. There were a few droop wing eagle 63 magazine bottoms in blue tubes (early 1937).

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

MauserLugers · 12-29-2003, 08:07 PM

As I recall my conversation with the gentleman who saw these in Germany, one person supposedly purchased 50. More were available. --- Bill

G.T. · 12-29-2003, 08:12 PM

Hi Bill! I think the next one (zakley the same!)that shows up will be a hell of a lot less then $455 bucks!!! just the same, I'd really like to get some of those mag. shells... pretty nice quality! ... happy new year to all! till....later....GT

Vlim · 12-30-2003, 04:56 PM

Hi,

Did some inquiring and it is quite possible that these magazines are created from Mauser leftovers. About a 1000 magazine tubes were left after Mauser halted it's postwar production. These tubes, along with other spare parts were bought by a German arms dealer who resold them to a German trader.

I suspect that someone refabricated the tube bottoms and added them to the tubes, thus creating these S/42 - E63 magazines.

Lugerdoc · 12-31-2003, 11:06 AM

GvV, The early high polish 1970's Mauser Parabellum mags were actually made in Holland and have the Mauser Banner stamped on the bottom of the spine. This Dutch firm also made some for retail sales, but instead of the Mauser Banner they will be marked "Made in Holland" in the same location. Since you live there, perhaps you can track down the firm. Late Parabellum mags, mostly for their commemerative, were made by MecGar in Italy. TH

Vlim · 01-03-2004, 10:49 AM

Tom,

I know there was indeed a dutch company that made them. It stopped creating them and some left-over documentation and magazine parts were bought by a dutch collector.

I mailed an image of the auctioned mag to the German dealer who bought a large part of the Mauser inventory some years ago, and he identified it as 'most probably' one of the tubes he acquired in that deal. These tubes appear to be made in the late 80's and are not mec-gars either.

I suspect Mauser was looking at different sources and obtained several magazines from several locations. This is turning into a nice piece of detective work and I'll try to find out what I can.

Vlim · 01-03-2004, 11:49 AM

The new magazine actually looks identical to one of my dutch mags. I have a blued wood-bottom mag that it matches quite well, the markings on the button are identical, as is the pattern. the metal edges of the two tube parts are slightly rounded on the new mag, where mine are straight.

Both magazine tubes are unmarked, btw.

(see the image in the gallery at
http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb..._M11/M11_2.jpg )

Herb · 01-03-2004, 04:46 PM

The one that I have is like Frank describes, blued tube, S/42 and droop winged eagle 63, no number.

Vlim · 01-04-2004, 10:53 AM

Hi,

Some fresh info:

The dutch made magazines, (made until the mid-nineties), are similar in shape to the MecGar magazines. A double-pin layout with plastic bottom. These dutch made magazines were produced by Hollandia, later absorbed in MFT (Metaalwaren Fabriek Tilburg). In the mid-eighties MFT stopped creating complete magazines and started supplying the tubes to Mauser. The buttons were obtained from a source in Switzerland.

MFT does not produce these magazines anymore. The MFT drawings, magazines and parts are now in the hands of a Dutch collector.

The dutch-made magazines can be found stamped as followed:

Made for Mauser in 1970 - 1995: Mauser logo on spine.

Made for Interarms, first series: Mauser logo on spine with Made in Holland below. These are rare.

Made for Interarms, second series: only Made in Holland on spine.

All this info rules out the Dutch MFT company as producers of the 'new' mags.

I'm now checking to see if Mauser had some other magazine source.

Does anyone know what happened to the Swiss magazine production site? It wasn't sold to Mauser.

Lugerdoc · 01-04-2004, 11:21 AM

GvV, Thanks for sharing your research on the Dutch made Parabellum mags. I have also seen some later "Interarms" marked MecGar mags (nickel plated with concentic circle marked black plastic bottoms). For anyone desiring a FREE Mauser Logo mag package lable (for more than one please add 10 cents each), please send SASE to Tom Heller POB 398 St.Charles, MO. 63302. I also have several 2x3&1/4" Mauser Banner Decals available @25 cents each and unused Mauser Parabellum test targets @$1 each. Sorry, but out of Parabellum factory manuals & boxes. Tom

12-28-2003, 09:20 PM	#1
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	Heard a Rumor Have friends that go to Germany a couple of times a year and they tell me that at the last show they attended there was a large batch of magazines for sale that had no serial number on them, S/42 replacement code, and an E/63 acceptance mark. These are recent reproductions that they are literally making at this time and are very good and very hard to tell from the originals. I was told that if you know what to look for and especially if you have a real one that you can tell the difference. Just a bit of information for you to consider..... Bill

12-31-2003, 11:06 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	GvV, The early high polish 1970's Mauser Parabellum mags were actually made in Holland and have the Mauser Banner stamped on the bottom of the spine. This Dutch firm also made some for retail sales, but instead of the Mauser Banner they will be marked "Made in Holland" in the same location. Since you live there, perhaps you can track down the firm. Late Parabellum mags, mostly for their commemerative, were made by MecGar in Italy. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-03-2004, 04:46 PM	#15
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	The one that I have is like Frank describes, blued tube, S/42 and droop winged eagle 63, no number. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-04-2004, 11:21 AM	#17
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	GvV, Thanks for sharing your research on the Dutch made Parabellum mags. I have also seen some later "Interarms" marked MecGar mags (nickel plated with concentic circle marked black plastic bottoms). For anyone desiring a FREE Mauser Logo mag package lable (for more than one please add 10 cents each), please send SASE to Tom Heller POB 398 St.Charles, MO. 63302. I also have several 2x3&1/4" Mauser Banner Decals available @25 cents each and unused Mauser Parabellum test targets @$1 each. Sorry, but out of Parabellum factory manuals & boxes. Tom __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-28-2003, 11:13 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Wow!!! What does that "rumor" do to the buyer of such a magazine on e-bay (#2212280066)? The princely amount of $455 changed hands for this magazine? If more magazines with these markings show up, one would see support for that "rumor". Until then, we are all on widening and deepening quicksand with "rare" items.

12-29-2003, 12:24 AM	#3
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Here is the recent e-Bay link... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=36049 I, too, thought it looked way too new and was leary. "ToggleTop" made a similar posting in another thread. I also wondered why folks would want to buy "un-numbered" magazines...??? If this one on e-Bay is/was real, was it an amourer's replacement...that gets numbered in the field upon issuance...? Regards, Pete...

12-29-2003, 12:54 AM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,500 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,627 Times in 999 Posts	Hi to all! I've studied and worked on a ton of Mauser mags in the past 20+ years, and I've studied them both inside and out... I am especially critical when it comes to manufacturing processes.... every part has it's own distinct signature as to how it was produced, and why it was done especially that way.... I looked at the mag. that was auctioned on ebay as closely as the pictures supplied would let me...... and, IF the magazine shell is a reproduction, then it is of the highest quality possible, and as far as I can tell, exact in every detail.... the mag. bottom is another matter entirely.... all of the Mauser cast bottoms that I have seen are somewhat different then the bottom pictured, first off, the Mauser bottoms I have seen display a slight but definite radius on the bottom edges of the bottom for better relief from the mold! Also, the outside edge radius on the knobs of the ebay offered mag. are somewhat smaller and sharper then what I am used to... and last, i have never seen a mag. bottom with both the S/42 & the E/63 together??? This is a collector thing, and they may exist that way... I just have never seen it.... All else looks real to me.... I would sure like to have that mag., but i'm glad I didn't bid on it! All the above is my opinion only... Best to all! Till.....Lat'r ....GT

12-29-2003, 01:34 AM	#5
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	This magazine is too good to be true! In my opinion, no magzine will show such a perfect consistent appearance after 60+ years even if it was wrapped in wax paper, such as the brown type found in some original pistol boxes. It is natural for any metal or finish to slightly discolor or take on a slight shade or fade with time. Based on the comments that G.T. has mentioned, I would say that the magazine is a superb reproduction. Albert

12-29-2003, 10:47 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Some detective work done, VEB Ernst ThÃ?Â¤lmann, was a conglomerate of Suhl based companies in former east germany. Went bankrupt in 2002 and seems to have been split up into a number of 'new old companies'. I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere tools/supplies turned up that enabled someone to either produce new magazines or construct them from new old stock. Some interesting links to this company: Simson and Haenel... Perhaps some of our German members can shed light on this company and the new companies it spawned?

12-29-2003, 11:44 AM	#7
RP User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 26 Thanks: 4 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	I was also interested in this magazine until I noticed the proof mark is a "straight-wing" eagle/63. Since the mag tube appears to be nickel plated, not blued, I do not believe this mag to be correct. A "drooped-wing" eagle/63 is the correct proof for a "nickel-plated" military S/42 variation--please advise.

12-29-2003, 12:54 PM	#8
Frank RIP Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Hot & Dry PHX, AZ Posts: 2,078 Thanks: 24 Thanked 163 Times in 87 Posts	Randy, nice work, I noticed that when I saw it on eBay. There were no stick wing eagle 63 magazine bottoms in nickeled tubes, at least that I am aware. There were a few droop wing eagle 63 magazine bottoms in blue tubes (early 1937). <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

12-29-2003, 08:07 PM	#9
MauserLugers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Philipsburg, Montana 59858 Posts: 250 Thanks: 0 Thanked 8 Times in 1 Post	As I recall my conversation with the gentleman who saw these in Germany, one person supposedly purchased 50. More were available. --- Bill

12-29-2003, 08:12 PM	#10
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,500 Thanks: 1,318 Thanked 3,627 Times in 999 Posts	Hi Bill! I think the next one (zakley the same!)that shows up will be a hell of a lot less then $455 bucks!!! just the same, I'd really like to get some of those mag. shells... pretty nice quality! ... happy new year to all! till....later....GT

12-30-2003, 04:56 PM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Did some inquiring and it is quite possible that these magazines are created from Mauser leftovers. About a 1000 magazine tubes were left after Mauser halted it's postwar production. These tubes, along with other spare parts were bought by a German arms dealer who resold them to a German trader. I suspect that someone refabricated the tube bottoms and added them to the tubes, thus creating these S/42 - E63 magazines.

01-03-2004, 10:49 AM	#13
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Tom, I know there was indeed a dutch company that made them. It stopped creating them and some left-over documentation and magazine parts were bought by a dutch collector. I mailed an image of the auctioned mag to the German dealer who bought a large part of the Mauser inventory some years ago, and he identified it as 'most probably' one of the tubes he acquired in that deal. These tubes appear to be made in the late 80's and are not mec-gars either. I suspect Mauser was looking at different sources and obtained several magazines from several locations. This is turning into a nice piece of detective work and I'll try to find out what I can.

01-03-2004, 11:49 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	The new magazine actually looks identical to one of my dutch mags. I have a blued wood-bottom mag that it matches quite well, the markings on the button are identical, as is the pattern. the metal edges of the two tube parts are slightly rounded on the new mag, where mine are straight. Both magazine tubes are unmarked, btw. (see the image in the gallery at http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugeralb..._M11/M11_2.jpg )

01-04-2004, 10:53 AM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Some fresh info: The dutch made magazines, (made until the mid-nineties), are similar in shape to the MecGar magazines. A double-pin layout with plastic bottom. These dutch made magazines were produced by Hollandia, later absorbed in MFT (Metaalwaren Fabriek Tilburg). In the mid-eighties MFT stopped creating complete magazines and started supplying the tubes to Mauser. The buttons were obtained from a source in Switzerland. MFT does not produce these magazines anymore. The MFT drawings, magazines and parts are now in the hands of a Dutch collector. The dutch-made magazines can be found stamped as followed: Made for Mauser in 1970 - 1995: Mauser logo on spine. Made for Interarms, first series: Mauser logo on spine with Made in Holland below. These are rare. Made for Interarms, second series: only Made in Holland on spine. All this info rules out the Dutch MFT company as producers of the 'new' mags. I'm now checking to see if Mauser had some other magazine source. Does anyone know what happened to the Swiss magazine production site? It wasn't sold to Mauser.