Strange Frame Cut Found

milesc2 · 12-21-2016, 11:55 AM

First off sorry about the poor quality pictures, I took them about 4 years ago with cellphone.

I was reviewing some photos I took of a matching numbers 1914 Erfurt SN: 1880 brought back by a family member of mine after WWII and I noticed a strange cut above the left grip panel. This gun was hidden in a bedroom by the man who captured it. He passed away sometime the 80's and the gun was lost. His wife was selling the hose in 2012 and the gun was found. When I examined the weapon I was extremely shocked to find it had an almost full mag with rounds that were manufactured in Germany in 1943.

Does anyone know what the cut above the grip panel is for? I have admittedly very little knowledge in the subject but I have never seen anything like this on a P08. Do you think the slot could be original? I am sure the gun was never reworked or refinished after the war but it may have been sometime between WWI and WWII. Again it is an all matching numbers gun.

Thanks for you help!

-Miles

JTD · 12-21-2016, 12:23 PM

It is a police rework that had the mag safety removed. search here for mag safety and you will get a full description. The pistol was at one point, a 1914 Erfurt artillery. It was re barreled for police use in the early 30's most likely. A police luger expert will probably chime in here shortly. John

milesc2 · 12-21-2016, 12:30 PM

Thanks for the info! Unfortunately I did not get any clear photos of the barrel stamps. There goes the matching numbers theory...

milesc2 · 12-21-2016, 12:51 PM

This information has let me to a few more questions; how would an American GI come into possession of a Police Luger? Would the pistol have been drafted into military service during or before the war? Also how does all of this effect the value of the pistol? (I assume it reduces it)

Thanks again for the knowledge!

-Miles

mrerick · 12-21-2016, 01:03 PM

When in the war zone in WW-II, ANY firearm in German hands would have been confiscated.

While part of the history of this 1914 dated Erfurt, I don't think I'd value it any less for having the magazine safety cut. This is a rather rare date for Erfurt. If it's all matching and in original finish, it would be very collectible. It still has the sear safety installed. The magazine safeties were removed from many of these police conversions.

Take fresh pictures showing external markings, including barrel markings, and the internal parts. Get the details from the magazine, which is not WW-I vintage (and probably interwar or WW-II vintage).

You have a great family heirloom. Resist the temptation to shoot it. Many of these century old pistols have broken a numbered part.

milesc2 · 12-21-2016, 01:52 PM

Thanks for the info Mrerick! The gun is not currently in my hands and is locked away in a bank vault somewhere. I have been trying to get the owner (son of the vet) to sell it to me. To my knowledge he has no interest in firearms but wants to keep it due to the connection with his father (I don't blame him!) Rest assured if I ever do come into possession of the weapon I will never fire it as I have a great 1916 DMW franken Luger that I feel much more comfortable shooting. I would be devastated if I broke a part on a matching numbers gun. I am only 25 so I'm holding hope that I can acquire this weapon at some point during my lifetime.

-Miles

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2016, 02:01 PM

The rework term is something I am usually a bit leery of using - although true, it sounds like a gun was torn down and refinished

As said above, an army luger made in 1914 by the royal arsenal Erfurt. At some point it was transferred to police and received a sear and mag safety in the early 1930's. Without any unit markings, you can only guess where it has been.

See the FAQ in the new collectors area for pictures of sear and mag safeties.

Ed

JTD · 12-21-2016, 02:15 PM

Ed, I think it is safe to say this one was torn down to some extent. At least the barrel, and rear toggle have been replaced. Miles, the barrel may very well be matching numbers, just not from the factory at Erfurt. (numbered by who ever did berrel change for the police re-fit) John

Edward Tinker · 12-21-2016, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTD

Ed, I think it is safe to say this one was torn down to some extent. At least the barrel, and rear toggle have been replaced. Miles, the barrel may very well be matching numbers, just not from the factory at Erfurt. (numbered by who ever did berrel change for the police re-fit) John

yes, I agree - did not mean to jump on your words.

and a magazine safety requires a big hole in the frame

JTD · 12-21-2016, 03:43 PM

No offence taken Ed, just pointing out this one saw some work. Merry Christmas to you and your family! John

12-21-2016, 11:55 AM	#1
milesc2 User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Kansas City Posts: 214 Thanks: 324 Thanked 249 Times in 66 Posts	Strange Frame Cut Found First off sorry about the poor quality pictures, I took them about 4 years ago with cellphone. I was reviewing some photos I took of a matching numbers 1914 Erfurt SN: 1880 brought back by a family member of mine after WWII and I noticed a strange cut above the left grip panel. This gun was hidden in a bedroom by the man who captured it. He passed away sometime the 80's and the gun was lost. His wife was selling the hose in 2012 and the gun was found. When I examined the weapon I was extremely shocked to find it had an almost full mag with rounds that were manufactured in Germany in 1943. Does anyone know what the cut above the grip panel is for? I have admittedly very little knowledge in the subject but I have never seen anything like this on a P08. Do you think the slot could be original? I am sure the gun was never reworked or refinished after the war but it may have been sometime between WWI and WWII. Again it is an all matching numbers gun. Thanks for you help! -Miles Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

12-21-2016, 01:03 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	When in the war zone in WW-II, ANY firearm in German hands would have been confiscated. While part of the history of this 1914 dated Erfurt, I don't think I'd value it any less for having the magazine safety cut. This is a rather rare date for Erfurt. If it's all matching and in original finish, it would be very collectible. It still has the sear safety installed. The magazine safeties were removed from many of these police conversions. Take fresh pictures showing external markings, including barrel markings, and the internal parts. Get the details from the magazine, which is not WW-I vintage (and probably interwar or WW-II vintage). You have a great family heirloom. Resist the temptation to shoot it. Many of these century old pistols have broken a numbered part. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

12-21-2016, 02:01 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,931 Thanks: 2,031 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	The rework term is something I am usually a bit leery of using - although true, it sounds like a gun was torn down and refinished As said above, an army luger made in 1914 by the royal arsenal Erfurt. At some point it was transferred to police and received a sear and mag safety in the early 1930's. Without any unit markings, you can only guess where it has been. See the FAQ in the new collectors area for pictures of sear and mag safeties. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

12-21-2016, 12:23 PM	#2
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	It is a police rework that had the mag safety removed. search here for mag safety and you will get a full description. The pistol was at one point, a 1914 Erfurt artillery. It was re barreled for police use in the early 30's most likely. A police luger expert will probably chime in here shortly. John

12-21-2016, 12:30 PM	#3
milesc2 User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Kansas City Posts: 214 Thanks: 324 Thanked 249 Times in 66 Posts	Thanks for the info! Unfortunately I did not get any clear photos of the barrel stamps. There goes the matching numbers theory...

12-21-2016, 12:51 PM	#4
milesc2 User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Kansas City Posts: 214 Thanks: 324 Thanked 249 Times in 66 Posts	This information has let me to a few more questions; how would an American GI come into possession of a Police Luger? Would the pistol have been drafted into military service during or before the war? Also how does all of this effect the value of the pistol? (I assume it reduces it) Thanks again for the knowledge! -Miles

12-21-2016, 01:52 PM	#6
milesc2 User Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Kansas City Posts: 214 Thanks: 324 Thanked 249 Times in 66 Posts	Thanks for the info Mrerick! The gun is not currently in my hands and is locked away in a bank vault somewhere. I have been trying to get the owner (son of the vet) to sell it to me. To my knowledge he has no interest in firearms but wants to keep it due to the connection with his father (I don't blame him!) Rest assured if I ever do come into possession of the weapon I will never fire it as I have a great 1916 DMW franken Luger that I feel much more comfortable shooting. I would be devastated if I broke a part on a matching numbers gun. I am only 25 so I'm holding hope that I can acquire this weapon at some point during my lifetime. -Miles

12-21-2016, 02:15 PM	#8
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	Ed, I think it is safe to say this one was torn down to some extent. At least the barrel, and rear toggle have been replaced. Miles, the barrel may very well be matching numbers, just not from the factory at Erfurt. (numbered by who ever did berrel change for the police re-fit) John

12-21-2016, 03:43 PM	#10
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 425 Thanks: 217 Thanked 408 Times in 149 Posts	No offence taken Ed, just pointing out this one saw some work. Merry Christmas to you and your family! John