M1900 DWM Bulgarian Luger

[gibsonj30]

Hello,
I have some questions concerning this pistol. It belongs to a family member. It is an M1900 DWM Bulgarian Luger. It was brought back during WWII by my great uncle. According to the story in the family, my great uncle was an MP and took this pistol from someone at Dachau (originally, I heard it was an officer, but everyone's luger came from an officer ). The pistol is in the original 7.65 parabellum. It has the original magazine and a 1922 flap holster. All of the numbers match-including the barrel. Is there anyway I can check to see if this pistol was rearsenaled? Is there a premium for a pistol that is in the original 7.65? Is it Kosher to post serial numbers?

[Mike B]

Patrick,
It appears that you have a VERY RARE Luger. According to the sources I have, less than 1000 were made. Most were converted to 9mm with a 4" barrel. This one has the original 4/34 inch, 7.65mm barrel. Very few are known to exist.
Please take the utmost care when storing and handling. It might not be bad idea to wear soft white gloves when you handling it. The oil on a persons hands can be harmful. Yes, please post the full serial number.

Mike

[gibsonj30]

Thank you Mike for the information. The serial number is 20245. It is marked on the barrel and frame. We take very good care of it. I wipe it down with an oil rag, but from this point on I will make sure I wear gloves. Since I was 12, I have taken it out once a year to oil it and run a swab down the barrel. Do you have any other suggestions for keeping it in good shape? What oil should I use? I have been using CRP, (very sparingly) to keep it free. It has caused no ill effects.

[MFC]

Patrick,
That's one helluva first post!!! That's a gorgeous Luger.
You can use any modern light gun oil. You'll get many different opinions as to which is the best. Just try not to get any on the grips.
Thanks for the pics... I'll go clean up my drool now.

[Mike B]

It appeas that you are taking very good care of it from the photos. You asked if there is any way to tell if it has had any arsenal work. Some military models have a small proof with an "R" (I think) over the proof. I am not sure if this was done on these early models, but from the appearance of the Luger, it seems to be original. The serial number is certainly in the correct range.

Mike

[gibsonj30]

There is no small R over the proof. A few more questions because I would love to trace the history of this piece. How could this escape being demilled and/or rearsenalled? I read that after WWI, the Bulgarians were forced to destroy most of their small arms and those that were not destroyed were converted. Did they do any private sales of Bulgarian Lugers? Can anyone confirm the actual number of M1900 Bulgarians that remain? How could an M1900 end up in the hands of a German at Dachau? Thank you very much for the information you have supplied already, I am just trying to piece together the rest of the puzzle.

[alvin]

Please don't use light gun oil if you don't shoot this thing. Light oil flows by physical law, which you have no control.

Of course, if you shoot it occasionally, apply a little bit light oil on moving components.

[Ron Wood]

It might very well be true, but I am a bit dubious that it was obtained at Dachau. Most of the conversions of the 7.65mm Bulgarian pieces to 9mm were performed around 1911 when Bulgaria purchased their Model 1908 Lugers in 9mm. Not all of the armament was destroyed after WWI, a lot of it was warehoused. There were a few surviving 7.65 guns that were converted during the Nazi era and during the 1960s a number of Bulgarian guns were imported into the US. Many of them were not in good shape so they were "parted out" and you will often see Bulgarian parts that have been mixed with other parts to make a complete gun. Dwight Gruber has recorded 37 serial numbers for surviving 1900 Bulgarian Lugers...yours will make 38.
You have a pretty desirable gun and considering its collectable status, I would recommend that it not be fired. An all original piece is hard to come by and if you damage a numbered part the value drops like a rock.

[Lugerdoc]

Gibson, Ron Ws info is right on, with possibly one exception not know to him. I know of an expert restorer in Calif. who has reconverted many of these from the 9mm back to the 7.65mm long receiver configuration, by rewelding the receiver and near perfect refinishing. The only way to tell if your's is all original, is to magnafux the receiver. But in this case, a perfect restoration is almost as good as an original. As has been said here many times before, buy the gun not the story. TH

[LugerVern]

Every thing Ron said

I don't think your gun has been refinished, at most some cold bluing might have been applied but I can not be sure. This happens a lot. Some of the pits appear to have bluing in them but the pictures are a little glaring, so I could be wrong.

You might like to know there are at least two different 1900 Bulgarian crests. I think there is a 3rd one but am waiting for another example to show up.

Yours is the more detailed variation. The picture below shows a 1906, a 1900 that has been converted to a 4 inch barreled 9 mm and your gun from left to right.

Look closely at the 6 o'clock position of the crests and you will see an obvious change in the crest design.

Hope this helps

Vern

[gibsonj30]

Originally Posted by Lugerdoc

Gibson, Ron Ws info is right on, with possibly one exception not know to him. I know of an expert restorer in Calif. who has reconverted many of these from the 9mm back to the 7.65mm long receiver configuration, by rewelding the receiver and near perfect refinishing. The only way to tell if your's is all original, is to magnafux the receiver. But in this case, a perfect restoration is almost as good as an original. As has been said here many times before, buy the gun not the story. TH

The pistol hasn't been purchased. I am not buying a story, just trying to find out what I can about the story. My great-uncle was an MP. He was part of the force that liberated Dachau. We have other items too- a German dress sword, what appears to be a cavalry sword, a number of watches taken from prisoners, wallets with photos and ids, cash, stamps, passports, the Luger, German officer patches, SS patches and most chilling, a cat-o-nine tails with Nazi insignia. When I was a kid, there was even a binder full of photos from the concentration camp. I have not seen that in years. This pistol was fired in the late 1940's according to what grandpa told me. We still have 7.65, but I won't fire it. This pistol was given to my grandfather from my great uncle. He brought it back from Europe. It has never changed hands with anyone else. It seems to me we had capture papers for it, but I can't recall.

As a family, we have tried to figure this out for years. It started with my Grandmother. When she became sick, she started researching the pistol. From her notes, we realized it was something truely special.

[gibsonj30]

Thank you everyone for the information and the tips. I wanted to include a few more pictures. One is of the serial number on the barrel and the frame. The other is of a spot on the grip that is missing some finish. It is the worst spot on the pistol.

I am concerned about maintaining it. At one time, it was packed in grease to keep it maintained. Grandpas logic was that cosmoline kept firearms in great shape for years. It took me a while to clean that off. Next, someone thought WD 40 was great. It varnished up and I couldn't get the chamber openned up. I lightly sprayed CRP on the stuck portions of the pistol and that removed the varnish allowing it to be openned. CRP seems to work fine, but someone mentioned not to use CRP because it is a light oil. I use Moble One Synthetic on the pistols I shoot. Can I use it on the luger as long as I use it sparingly?

[LugerVern]

I don't recommend using synthetic motor oil on rust blued guns. I actually use to use it to remove rust from badly rusted guns. It contains detergents. It is also hygroscopic and attracts water. Great for engines that are heated up but not for long term storage of guns.

There are several good posts on taking care of your gun, take the time to read them.

What exactly are you asking us for?

There is no way to trace the original owner, those records are not known at this time.

Have you examined the gun under the grips and in hidden areas for any markings?

Vern

[gibsonj30]

Thank you for the response on the synthetic oil. It is good to know. I don't mean to sound ungreatful for the advice. I know how to care for firearms, but this is in a whole different caliber (no pun intended). I guess I read one post about light oil and got a little paranoid. Gun care seems to change as the wind blows. I remember a time when WD40 and Liquid Wrench were touted by some as the greatest lubricants for firearms.

Vern, thank you specifically for the comparisons between the crests. It helps me distinguish the differences between the different Bulgarian variants. I have never seen another Bulgarian. Frankly, this was the first luger I ever saw. It has become the standard by which I measure other firearms. When I picked up my 1911, I remember thinking, "Yeah, it's nice, but it doesn't balance like the luger." It has fascinated me for over 20 years. Until yesterday, I was under a gag order and told not to discuss it with anyone.

I guess I was hoping to trace the firearm to a specific person, but I realize that may be impossible. Thank you for clarifying. It is a beautiful piece on its own, and I will enjoy it as I have for years as being just that.

Pat

[alvin]

Originally Posted by gibsonj30

I guess I read one post about light oil and got a little paranoid. Gun care seems to change as the wind blows. I remember a time when WD40 and Liquid Wrench were touted by some as the greatest lubricants for firearms.

That's right. I use WD40 on my CAI Nagant. The thing does not worth BreakFree. I use BreakFree on AR15, works fine, right formula for shooter. If this is for long term storage, you're not going to look at it every week, then keep it "dry" -- not only water free, keep it liquid free.

But don't shoot it dry though. Apply BreakFree before shooting.

BTW, if the thing is full of heavy rust, LiquidWrench (tm) works well.

[Ron Wood]

Alvin,
What does LiquidWrench do to rust blue?

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Alvin,
What does LiquidWrench do to rust blue?

Very negative. LiquidWrench does not distinguish Fe2O3 and Fe3O4, it removes both of them. If there is gun blue to preserve, using LiquidWrench will be a big mistake. Its usage is limited to parts without finish, or originally blued but now thick rust covered.

[Lugerdoc]

I agree with the light oil/break free for guns that you plan to shoot or clean regularly. For long term storage, consider using an ample coating or Rig or a similar grease. TH

[Vlim]

How about a wax coating for storage purposes? I've used a good quality bees wax for the preservation of unblued gun parts for a while now and it seems to work OK. It's also being used on silver and brass to slow down the darkening of the surfaces considerably.

[Ron Wood]

I am a fan of Renaissance Wax. Hard and completely transparent, gives excellent protection, a nice sheen and tolerates handling. Can be removed with gun oil, acetone, etc. Not cheap but a little goes a long way.