New member trying to figure out date of manufacture on my P08

kapnkd · 04-28-2011, 11:25 PM

Having just found this site and now as a new member I am glad to find others who appreciate Lugers as much (or obviously WAY more) than I do. Ever since being a teen I admired the advanced design and beauty of this pistol and still do at age 67. I am hopeful one or more of you can help me in better identifying the possible age of the Luger I own.

I've owned a P08 Luger since the mid 70's but never did any serious research before to determine the age or specific manufacturing history. It is a 9mm with an 80mm (3.25”) barrel length.

Sadly, it does not have complete matching numbers but that really does not matter to me as I enjoy occasionally shooting the weapon. It does not have many of the distinctive markings that are listed on this site other than the predominate serial number 2258 stamped on the left side, under the barrel and a 58 on the bright metal portion of the safety (left side). The top just in back of the barrel (chamber inscription??) does NOT have a date and the forward piece of the toggle has no stampings either. BUT - When holding the gun to reflect in the light, I can almost make out a shadow of a marking that could be either the “DWM” or possibly a crown (Erfurt or Spandau armory marking??? It looks as if the top of the weapon had possibly been professionally milled down to purposely remove the German markings and then re-blued. (I understand some Lugers were utilized/converted in this manner by the British during WWII.) There is also a small number “72” just under the rear site. (Not sure if this is another mismatch of the serial numbers???)

Speaking of the toggle, it is (as near as I can figure what you refer to as the “squared and knurled” version. There are also no markings by the thumb safety. Possibly worth noting is that on the opposite side of the frame is a stamping of an upper case “L” within a small rectangular box. Close to this is what looks to be the number “3” with a line under it (this is hard to make out).

There is no grip safety or stock lug on this particular model and it does have dark brown checkered wood (walnut is my guess) grips without a border. The magazine (clip) has no markings and has the aluminum bottom.

Thanks in advance for any information or thoughts any of you can share with me.

-kapnkd

Edward Tinker · 04-29-2011, 04:04 AM

Well dang it, I have lost my info, 2 times.....

So, will keep this short

your barrel length is not correct, but it may just be how you measured it?
The lack of serial number placement and stock lug, tells me it is either an early gun, or a commercial with the stock lug ground off. Since it has been reblued, that is a real possibility.

Pictures and full serial number would help a lot, otherwise we are just guessing.

Ed

kapnkd · 04-29-2011, 12:10 PM

Hello Ed...

Thanks for your prompt reply! I measured the barrel from the end of the receiver to the the tip again and it is 80mm in length. I was wrong about the 3.25" as it is actually 3.125" as measured.

I'll take some photos later this pm and include them for you for sure. In looking at the stock lug area of the grip, I see no milling as has occured on the top of the weapon. Also, it appears to be the original bluing (if possible???)

Not too sure where there could be another serial number as I have inspected the gun closely looking for any and all marking.

Again, thanks for your help and I'll be sending some photos a little later.
-kapnkd

Edward Tinker · 04-30-2011, 01:50 PM

The barrel looks correct in the length, usually they are 4 inches (or just under) but I think its measured from the front of the breachblock to the front of the barrel (drop a pencil down the barrel and measure).

The serial number is humorous, as I had one the exact same sn (but different manufacturer).

The stock lug does not appear to have been ground off, but since its been reblued and buffed, that is hard to say. Looking under magnification, can you see any markings on the right or left; looking for proofs or acceptance, etc.

Ed

kapnkd · 04-30-2011, 04:26 PM

Hi Ed,

First of all many thanks for your interest and help - I appreciate your thoughts and efforts.

Ahhhh, the pencil method gave me 4" on the money!

The only rt or lft side marks that I can find are what I included as photos in my album. I do notice there seems to be some marks on the side of what I call the ejector pin which resides at the front of the toggle assembly. It is hard to make out what is on the left side of the pin without taking it all apart but it looks like "n b 1EHb". Also the left side of the toggle assembly at the front has a "72" stamped on it just like at the rear under the rear site. Does this mean the toggle is from a different gun perhaps??

Interesting to hear about the identical serial numbers. Strange there wasn't more coordination knowing how methodical German engineering can be.

-kerry

Norme · 04-30-2011, 04:56 PM

Hi Kerry, The part you are referring to is the extractor. It sounds like it is in Bulgarian. Good clear photos would settle the issue. Regards, Norm

kapnkd · 04-30-2011, 06:35 PM

Hello Norm,

Thanks for your input, I'm going to post one more photo after this reply on the album I've created. (I just took a photo of the extractor pin for you to look at.)

Best regards,
-kerry

RichSr · 04-30-2011, 06:39 PM

Hi Kerry, Welcome to the forum. I'll let the experts verify, but as Norme stated the extractor marking appears be in Bulgarian. This would be in keeping with the rest of the pistol as most Bulgarians are found mismatched and with the markings removed. The definitive clue is the lack of a lanyard ring(bar/staple...whatever) above where the web of your hand would rest. If you carefully remove one of the grips (the right one is always preferable) you should find a hole low on the rear of the backstrap where a lanyard ring particular to the 1908 Bulgarian model.
Hope this helps some

kapnkd · 04-30-2011, 09:56 PM

Hi there RichSr!

Thanks for the tip and YES!! ...there is a hole directly across from the screw holes in the back strap.

Little by little the clues are falling in place!

Many thanks to all three of you who have responded!

By the way, I notice you are from "West Texas". I was stationed in Big Spring, Texas at Webb AFB from 1966 thru 1969. In spite of the dry weather, dust storms and realizing that even the (oversized) jack rabbits carried roadmaps and canteens - I really enjoyed it out there! The townspeople were the best folks one could ever hope to meet and treated us military guys like family.

-kerry

kapnkd · 04-30-2011, 10:41 PM

I'm just now doing a little research on "Bulgarian"Lugers and came across this quote on the NRA's history/info site:

"In addition to German military and commercial production, P08s were produced for Bulgaria, Russia, Turkey, Persia, Venezuela, Abyssinia, Roumania, and Switzerland prior to the outbreak of war in 1914."

My question is - Does this mean Bulagria only purchased P08 Lugers from 1908 (first productions thru the start of WWI?? If so, this really helps narrow down the date of my Luger.

Sorry to be so naive (dumb) on Lugers but do you have any thoughts/knowledge you can share???

-kerry

04-28-2011, 11:25 PM	#1
kapnkd User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South East Michigan (But...NOT Detroit!) Posts: 7 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New member trying to figure out date of manufacture on my P08 Having just found this site and now as a new member I am glad to find others who appreciate Lugers as much (or obviously WAY more) than I do. Ever since being a teen I admired the advanced design and beauty of this pistol and still do at age 67. I am hopeful one or more of you can help me in better identifying the possible age of the Luger I own. I've owned a P08 Luger since the mid 70's but never did any serious research before to determine the age or specific manufacturing history. It is a 9mm with an 80mm (3.25”) barrel length. Sadly, it does not have complete matching numbers but that really does not matter to me as I enjoy occasionally shooting the weapon. It does not have many of the distinctive markings that are listed on this site other than the predominate serial number 2258 stamped on the left side, under the barrel and a 58 on the bright metal portion of the safety (left side). The top just in back of the barrel (chamber inscription??) does NOT have a date and the forward piece of the toggle has no stampings either. BUT - When holding the gun to reflect in the light, I can almost make out a shadow of a marking that could be either the “DWM” or possibly a crown (Erfurt or Spandau armory marking??? It looks as if the top of the weapon had possibly been professionally milled down to purposely remove the German markings and then re-blued. (I understand some Lugers were utilized/converted in this manner by the British during WWII.) There is also a small number “72” just under the rear site. (Not sure if this is another mismatch of the serial numbers???) Speaking of the toggle, it is (as near as I can figure what you refer to as the “squared and knurled” version. There are also no markings by the thumb safety. Possibly worth noting is that on the opposite side of the frame is a stamping of an upper case “L” within a small rectangular box. Close to this is what looks to be the number “3” with a line under it (this is hard to make out). There is no grip safety or stock lug on this particular model and it does have dark brown checkered wood (walnut is my guess) grips without a border. The magazine (clip) has no markings and has the aluminum bottom. Thanks in advance for any information or thoughts any of you can share with me. -kapnkd

04-29-2011, 04:04 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Well dang it, I have lost my info, 2 times..... So, will keep this short your barrel length is not correct, but it may just be how you measured it? The lack of serial number placement and stock lug, tells me it is either an early gun, or a commercial with the stock lug ground off. Since it has been reblued, that is a real possibility. Pictures and full serial number would help a lot, otherwise we are just guessing. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-30-2011, 01:50 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	The barrel looks correct in the length, usually they are 4 inches (or just under) but I think its measured from the front of the breachblock to the front of the barrel (drop a pencil down the barrel and measure). The serial number is humorous, as I had one the exact same sn (but different manufacturer). The stock lug does not appear to have been ground off, but since its been reblued and buffed, that is hard to say. Looking under magnification, can you see any markings on the right or left; looking for proofs or acceptance, etc. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-30-2011, 06:39 PM	#8
RichSr User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: West Texas Posts: 128 Thanks: 153 Thanked 54 Times in 36 Posts	Hi Kerry, Welcome to the forum. I'll let the experts verify, but as Norme stated the extractor marking appears be in Bulgarian. This would be in keeping with the rest of the pistol as most Bulgarians are found mismatched and with the markings removed. The definitive clue is the lack of a lanyard ring(bar/staple...whatever) above where the web of your hand would rest. If you carefully remove one of the grips (the right one is always preferable) you should find a hole low on the rear of the backstrap where a lanyard ring particular to the 1908 Bulgarian model. Hope this helps some __________________ Rich

04-30-2011, 09:56 PM	#9
kapnkd User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South East Michigan (But...NOT Detroit!) Posts: 7 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Back Strap Hole Hi there RichSr! Thanks for the tip and YES!! ...there is a hole directly across from the screw holes in the back strap. Little by little the clues are falling in place! Many thanks to all three of you who have responded! By the way, I notice you are from "West Texas". I was stationed in Big Spring, Texas at Webb AFB from 1966 thru 1969. In spite of the dry weather, dust storms and realizing that even the (oversized) jack rabbits carried roadmaps and canteens - I really enjoyed it out there! The townspeople were the best folks one could ever hope to meet and treated us military guys like family. -kerry

04-29-2011, 12:10 PM	#3
kapnkd User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South East Michigan (But...NOT Detroit!) Posts: 7 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Ed... Thanks for your prompt reply! I measured the barrel from the end of the receiver to the the tip again and it is 80mm in length. I was wrong about the 3.25" as it is actually 3.125" as measured. I'll take some photos later this pm and include them for you for sure. In looking at the stock lug area of the grip, I see no milling as has occured on the top of the weapon. Also, it appears to be the original bluing (if possible???) Not too sure where there could be another serial number as I have inspected the gun closely looking for any and all marking. Again, thanks for your help and I'll be sending some photos a little later. -kapnkd

04-30-2011, 04:26 PM	#5
kapnkd User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South East Michigan (But...NOT Detroit!) Posts: 7 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi Ed, First of all many thanks for your interest and help - I appreciate your thoughts and efforts. Ahhhh, the pencil method gave me 4" on the money! The only rt or lft side marks that I can find are what I included as photos in my album. I do notice there seems to be some marks on the side of what I call the ejector pin which resides at the front of the toggle assembly. It is hard to make out what is on the left side of the pin without taking it all apart but it looks like "n b 1EHb". Also the left side of the toggle assembly at the front has a "72" stamped on it just like at the rear under the rear site. Does this mean the toggle is from a different gun perhaps?? Interesting to hear about the identical serial numbers. Strange there wasn't more coordination knowing how methodical German engineering can be. -kerry

04-30-2011, 04:56 PM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Kerry, The part you are referring to is the extractor. It sounds like it is in Bulgarian. Good clear photos would settle the issue. Regards, Norm

04-30-2011, 06:35 PM	#7
kapnkd User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South East Michigan (But...NOT Detroit!) Posts: 7 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello Norm, Thanks for your input, I'm going to post one more photo after this reply on the album I've created. (I just took a photo of the extractor pin for you to look at.) Best regards, -kerry

04-30-2011, 10:41 PM	#10
kapnkd User Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: South East Michigan (But...NOT Detroit!) Posts: 7 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Another question...re: Bulgarian Lugers I'm just now doing a little research on "Bulgarian"Lugers and came across this quote on the NRA's history/info site: "In addition to German military and commercial production, P08s were produced for Bulgaria, Russia, Turkey, Persia, Venezuela, Abyssinia, Roumania, and Switzerland prior to the outbreak of war in 1914." My question is - Does this mean Bulagria only purchased P08 Lugers from 1908 (first productions thru the start of WWI?? If so, this really helps narrow down the date of my Luger. Sorry to be so naive (dumb) on Lugers but do you have any thoughts/knowledge you can share??? -kerry