41 Banner Mauser Luger What Variation Please?

xqsme44 · 02-11-2014, 02:58 PM

Hello Gentlemen,
Just got this. Nice looking Banner Mauser. Only proof on it is an Eagle/623. Serial # on frame, and slide. So, commercial I guess? This Luger shows no signs of a refinish,( my humble opinion, 50 years+ of collecting). I value the opinions of this forum.
Thanks in advance for any replies.

Edward Tinker · 02-11-2014, 03:32 PM

welcome to the forum

some clear, close ups of the markings on the outside would be good. the stamps on the inside are worker markings, so not consistent enough to tell (yet, maybe someone will do a study on them)

since its dated, it went to the army... commercial would not be dated IMO

xqsme44 · 02-11-2014, 04:25 PM

Thanks.

ithacaartist · 02-11-2014, 04:33 PM

I'm looking at the frame. There is no Mauser hump. The inside of the frame is in the white. I saw a '36 with no hump in another thread, and the connected conjecture was that left over DWM parts were around, then, and some of that vintage had the DWM frames with no hump. But did this situation present itself in 1941?

xqsme44 · 02-11-2014, 04:44 PM

I don't have a clue.
Thank you for your reply.

sheepherder · 02-11-2014, 05:54 PM

Great username!...

stressed · 02-11-2014, 07:57 PM

That sucker needs a good cleaning.

alanint · 02-11-2014, 08:28 PM

Please also let us know which parts are numbered. Curious that the Mauser toggle link is not.

xqsme44 · 02-11-2014, 09:49 PM

no numbers on anything.

Edward Tinker · 02-11-2014, 10:05 PM

should be in the commercial fashion - numbers on bottom of sideplate, bottom of take down lever

?

xqsme44 · 02-12-2014, 09:17 AM

Except for #'s on frame, slide, and grips, it's sterile .

ithacaartist · 02-12-2014, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xqsme44

I don't have a clue.
Thank you for your reply.

I forgot to welcome you to the forum, Dennis...

My question was more aimed at the community than you...we are all somewhat armchair detectives, ferreting out the clues that will lead to an assessment of your pistol. I'm still learning, and developed the query after studying the pics. Someone will know the answer--whether this pistol was assembled with an old DWM frame. This business about lack of serial numbers is also anomalous, and may go right along with the notion that the pistol was assembled from left over parts--by whom or when would be other questions, if this turns out to be true.

Edward Tinker · 02-12-2014, 11:49 AM

David, no correct commercial markings, no military except the 41, no witness markings - I would say its a put together gun

but don't let that be the last word... I know pre-WW2 stuff much better

Ed

xqsme44 · 02-12-2014, 12:41 PM

Gentlemen,
Thank you all for the replies. I am not trying
to make a "Holy Grail" out of this Luger. Just trying to ascertain if it's a $1000.00 Luger or a $1500.00 one. It's not a refinished gun, edges are sharp, does show no signs of ever having been fired. But, has the slightest holster wear on the high spots. I was thinking a left over parts put together later in the war. But why the extra effort with the fit and finish? Anyway, this is what makes collecting so fascinating for me.

Sergio Natali · 02-12-2014, 04:03 PM

David

I like your definition:

"we are all somewhat armchair detectives, ferreting out the clues that will lead to an assessment of your pistol..."

it's quite amusing I think

xqsme44 · 02-12-2014, 04:12 PM

Grazie !

DavidJayUden · 02-12-2014, 10:01 PM

The problem is that there is no category for this gun, and it is worth whatever someone is willing to pay. Does the lack of standardized numbers make it odd? Yes. Worth more? Dunno.
Seems to me like there should be a premium for a gun with unusual numbering, but the problem is to find someone willing, and who has real money, to pay more.
I'd like to see lots of good clear photos to try to make sense of it.
An interesting gun, to be sure.
dju

nukem556 · 02-12-2014, 10:54 PM

I looks to be in the white internally....does that make sense? (Sorry, just saw Ithaca brought up the same issue).....still, some parts look a little "soft", as in some polishing before a refinish.....look at the bevels on the middle toggle piece.

xqsme44 · 02-13-2014, 01:42 PM

If nothing else, I need to take a class in digital photography.

DavidJayUden · 02-13-2014, 02:50 PM

Since you have it in hand, are there ANY signs that numbers have been removed, be it gouges, faint partial numbers, slight contours where the numbers were removed? Particularly under the barrel just ahead of the receiver? I just can't tell from the photos.
Also, therre is the issue of a Mauser "hump" on the back of the barrel extension. Some photos suggest that it is there, others do not.
Any cursive letter (suffix) below the numbers on the front of the lower? Perhaps a "books guy" can help us there.
Any proofs or markings on the barrel, and what markings am I seeing on the right side just behind the barrel?
Personally I'm seeing no evidence of numbers removal and re-blue. So that leaves us at being assembled from parts.
dju

02-11-2014, 02:58 PM	#1
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	41 Banner Mauser Luger What Variation Please? Hello Gentlemen, Just got this. Nice looking Banner Mauser. Only proof on it is an Eagle/623. Serial # on frame, and slide. So, commercial I guess? This Luger shows no signs of a refinish,( my humble opinion, 50 years+ of collecting). I value the opinions of this forum. Thanks in advance for any replies. Attached Thumbnails

02-11-2014, 03:32 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	welcome to the forum some clear, close ups of the markings on the outside would be good. the stamps on the inside are worker markings, so not consistent enough to tell (yet, maybe someone will do a study on them) since its dated, it went to the army... commercial would not be dated IMO __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-11-2014, 04:33 PM	#4
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,342 Thanks: 7,264 Thanked 2,569 Times in 1,363 Posts	I'm looking at the frame. There is no Mauser hump. The inside of the frame is in the white. I saw a '36 with no hump in another thread, and the connected conjecture was that left over DWM parts were around, then, and some of that vintage had the DWM frames with no hump. But did this situation present itself in 1941? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

02-11-2014, 05:54 PM	#6
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Great username!... __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

02-11-2014, 10:05 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	should be in the commercial fashion - numbers on bottom of sideplate, bottom of take down lever ? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-11-2014, 04:25 PM	#3
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks.

02-11-2014, 04:44 PM	#5
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I don't have a clue. Thank you for your reply.

02-11-2014, 07:57 PM	#7
stressed User Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 197 Thanks: 41 Thanked 43 Times in 30 Posts	That sucker needs a good cleaning.

02-11-2014, 08:28 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Please also let us know which parts are numbered. Curious that the Mauser toggle link is not.

02-11-2014, 09:49 PM	#9
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	no numbers on anything.

02-12-2014, 09:17 AM	#11
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Except for #'s on frame, slide, and grips, it's sterile .

02-12-2014, 11:49 AM	#13
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	David, no correct commercial markings, no military except the 41, no witness markings - I would say its a put together gun but don't let that be the last word... I know pre-WW2 stuff much better Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-12-2014, 12:41 PM	#14
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gentlemen, Thank you all for the replies. I am not trying to make a "Holy Grail" out of this Luger. Just trying to ascertain if it's a $1000.00 Luger or a $1500.00 one. It's not a refinished gun, edges are sharp, does show no signs of ever having been fired. But, has the slightest holster wear on the high spots. I was thinking a left over parts put together later in the war. But why the extra effort with the fit and finish? Anyway, this is what makes collecting so fascinating for me.

02-12-2014, 04:03 PM	#15
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	David I like your definition: "we are all somewhat armchair detectives, ferreting out the clues that will lead to an assessment of your pistol..." it's quite amusing I think __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

02-12-2014, 04:12 PM	#16
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Grazie !

02-12-2014, 10:01 PM	#17
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	The problem is that there is no category for this gun, and it is worth whatever someone is willing to pay. Does the lack of standardized numbers make it odd? Yes. Worth more? Dunno. Seems to me like there should be a premium for a gun with unusual numbering, but the problem is to find someone willing, and who has real money, to pay more. I'd like to see lots of good clear photos to try to make sense of it. An interesting gun, to be sure. dju

02-12-2014, 10:54 PM	#18
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	I looks to be in the white internally....does that make sense? (Sorry, just saw Ithaca brought up the same issue).....still, some parts look a little "soft", as in some polishing before a refinish.....look at the bevels on the middle toggle piece.

02-13-2014, 01:42 PM	#19
xqsme44 User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: VA Posts: 12 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	more photos If nothing else, I need to take a class in digital photography. Attached Thumbnails

02-13-2014, 02:50 PM	#20
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Since you have it in hand, are there ANY signs that numbers have been removed, be it gouges, faint partial numbers, slight contours where the numbers were removed? Particularly under the barrel just ahead of the receiver? I just can't tell from the photos. Also, therre is the issue of a Mauser "hump" on the back of the barrel extension. Some photos suggest that it is there, others do not. Any cursive letter (suffix) below the numbers on the front of the lower? Perhaps a "books guy" can help us there. Any proofs or markings on the barrel, and what markings am I seeing on the right side just behind the barrel? Personally I'm seeing no evidence of numbers removal and re-blue. So that leaves us at being assembled from parts. dju