Mysterious Dots

[Doubs]

In the New member's Forum there is a thread entitled "Weimar Lugers". I posted a picture there of a 1918/1920 DWM double date Luger that I once owned. Clearly shown is the extractor with the last two digits of the serial number (92) and directly under the number is a "dot".

Now got to: http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...p?Item=5314558

Note that in the pictures of this 1918 DWM, there is a "dot" after the last two digits of the serial number on the sideplate and also the forward toggle link.

Has anyone else noted similar "dots" on other Lugers? Any ideas as to the significance of them... if any at all?

[Edward Tinker]

No idea, but the dot is distinct isn't it. I am curious as to its significance also.

[Herb]

They appear to be the German equivalent of the Rockwell test for hardness but I have never seen them in these locations. Further they would appear to have been applied after the number stamping, usually the hardness test would have been long before the numbers were stamped. Another Luger mystery! Good eye Doubs.

[Thor]

I see them on the side of breechblocks more than anywhere else Or how about these three (I didnt put them there) on an Erfurt frame I bought from Tom Heller.

[Stevie]

My 1920 Dwm has the same dimple on the toggle link as the auction gun. It also has an identical dimple on the sear bar behind the serial #. Have not noticed any others.
Stevie.

[policeluger]

underside of barrel extention...you can find them in random location. I believe I have an old letter, 20 some years ago from Sam Costanzo stating they are hardness tests.

[Doubs]

[quote]Originally posted by policeluger:
<strong>underside of barrel extention...you can find them in random location. I believe I have an old letter, 20 some years ago from Sam Costanzo stating they are hardness tests.</strong><hr></blockquote>

A hardness test was one of my first thoughts too. However, the proximity to the last two digits of the serial number in these cases, plus the fact that so few parts have what appear to be hardness test dots in exterior places, makes me doubt it. I think hardness testing is more likely to have been done in a place not visable when the gun is assembled. The three dots on Thor's Erfurt are interesting but are deeper and larger than most hardness test dots I've seen.

I'd like to know how many collectors have Lugers with a dot next to a serial number on a part. Stevie has reported a third gun and it's a DWM too, although post-war. I hope ohers will examine their guns and report what they find.

[Stevie]

My old gun was probably a 1916 or possibly 1918. Both dots are directly after the two digit serial#. Dont have a scanner, do have a digital camera. I'll see about a picture.

Stevie.

[lugercollector]

I have a double dated DWM police rig with two dots on each of the following parts...sideplate, all 3 toggle assembly parts ,sear bar and frame....in each case the two dots are next to the serial number....I would be willing to bet that these marks were put there during refurbishing to confirm that these critical areas passed rework inspection....I'll bet a six pack of good Canadian beer on that one...Peter

[Doubs]

[quote]Originally posted by lugercollector:
<strong>I have a double dated DWM police rig with two dots on each of the following parts...sideplate, all 3 toggle assembly parts ,sear bar and frame....in each case the two dots are next to the serial number....I would be willing to bet that these marks were put there during refurbishing to confirm that these critical areas passed rework inspection....I'll bet a six pack of good Canadian beer on that one...Peter</strong><hr></blockquote>

Up to this point I haven't said what I think these dots may indicate but you've come closest to my thoughts on it. These dots do not appear next to the serial number on every Luger but only on some and then not on the same parts all the time. That's why I don't think they are hardness test marks. My idea is that the dots indicate a replacement part at either field or, as Peter says, some higher level during repairs or refurbishment. So far, no one has reported the dots on a serially mis-matched part but that, of course, is possible if such parts are swapped to another pistol.

Anyway, that's my thought on it and I have absolutely NO PROOF whatsoever! It's just the best explaination I can think of at the moment. I'm open to better ideas.

[ViggoG]

<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> Do not rule out hardness testing because the dots seem to be found randomly.
It has long been and still is a standard practice to randomly select samples from the assembly line to spot check and perform quality testing.
In the Space Program flight rated parts required that all parts be certified at all stages of production.
Otherwise the testing could be more of a random nature to "Certify the Batch".
I would not expect to find hardness testing done on more than 5% or 10% of the total production.
And I would consider that more than adequate to detect 99.9% of all off standard items, as an erronious series of parts require that there be a "look back" to the last satisfactory items of the series. <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

[Herb]

Thanks, TF, good info to have. On these particular Lugers is there a very small eagle over a number on the upper right quadrant of the barrel? Look closely, these things are hard to spot. If there is one, what does it look like, what is the number?

[Stevie]

Herb, got an eagle for you, top of barrel and slightly to the right. Not particularly small. Looks like proof #31 type eagle, from forum pages. This gun has the #31 proofs. Also same eagle left side of bolt. If there were #'s or letters under the barrel eagle, rust and refinish got them. Not sure this is what you're looking for,if there was a smaller bird it's long gone.

Stevie.

[Herb]

Stevie, according to Costanzo, Page 93, item #78 this proof is that of a 1926 DWM military/police proof. found on Lugers dated 1920 and 1921, found on the breechblock and top of barrel. hope this helps.

[Stevie]

Thank's for the info. Herb. I'm going to ask for Luger books for Christmas.

Thanks, Stevie

[Stevie]

Looked over my post's about this dot thing,and realized that I may have confused some folks about my DWM's date. My pistol is dated 1920, but you can see a partialy removed date of 1916 or 1918 in larger #'s with 1920 overstamped in the same spot. I've heard that this was a common date/property mark on Wiemer reworks.

Sorry for any confusion, Stevie.

[RP]

I recently purchased a 1936 S/42--all matching/original, with 5 dots(4 dots outlining a box shape with the 5th dot in the middle of the four). Looks very similar to Thor's pic, and is in the same right/rear frame recess area. These dots, although small in diameter are still much larger than any Rockwell hardness tests that I am familiar with.

[Stevie]

A picture of krieghof luger appears to have the same sear bar dot as my DWM. Check it out under 1937 Krieghof, posted yesterday on the Krieghof forum.

Stevie.