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Unread 11-02-2006, 01:37 PM   #1
Pete Ebbink
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Default Ron Wood - Test Eagle # 6651

Hi Ron,

Some photos of a TE # 6651 on the RIA auction house site; which you have on your list already :

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=39&iid=191192
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Unread 11-02-2006, 01:53 PM   #2
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Thanks Pete, it is always good to record condition in the data base and I do not often get a chance to see the guns. Too bad about the safety markings, although it isn't terribly distracting. I would think there is a very special warm place in the afterlife for the guy that invented the electropencil.
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Unread 11-02-2006, 03:28 PM   #3
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Another one all cased-up with a holster is TE # 6413...that one is on your and Reese' original list as well :

http://www.rockislandauction.com/vie...=39&iid=189584

The auction write-up on this one says "13" is on the left side of the TD lever. I assume in the commercial style as you cannot see it on the photo of the left side of the gun. Probably it lost its original with the "13" on the right side and someone "force matched" another TD lever (???).

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Unread 11-02-2006, 04:31 PM   #4
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Curious. The ad says "the presence of some light pitting on the frame above the thumb safety lever indicates the pistol has been arsenal refurbished as writer has seen this on other U.S. Test Lugers". What arsenal? I am unaware of any US arsenal, Rock Island or Springfield, refurbishment of Test Lugers and I am sure they weren't sent back to DWM for refurb. Possibly Waffenfabrik USA arsenal? Anyway, the "13" on the left side of the TD and the evidence of refinish over pitting makes this "mint" example suspicious.

I was also very interested in the document in the case that indicates "Report No, 9242 on Luger No. 6413 1 of 5 issued to Capt. White, 11 Cavalry Fort Ethan Allen, Vt. Nov 7, 1901". I wonder where that information came from? I have always been under the impression that the only Lugers that were identified by serial number as being issued to a specific unit were the 5 reported by 2nd Lt. Orlando G. Palmer, 7th Cavalry, Cuba in his test report.

Nice holster though.
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Unread 11-02-2006, 05:34 PM   #5
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Unread 11-02-2006, 06:32 PM   #6
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A very interesting piece of paper... I wonder where the designs at the top and bottom that are obviously not part of the report, but have been inserted into the frame came from?
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Unread 11-02-2006, 06:59 PM   #7
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This document was especially prepared by Hans Tauscher when he was thinking of going over to Colt. Very rare and desirable.

Interesting how many shots on flesh the Captain had in Vermont.
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Unread 11-02-2006, 10:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Teat Eagle
Freudian slip?
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Unread 11-04-2006, 02:29 PM   #9
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According to M. Reese in his 1st. edition of his book "U.S. Test Trials 1900 Luger" on page 27 :

"...They were received in two shipment: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols..."

How would it have been possible for someone to write a report on Nov. 7, 1901 about how the guns performed when they were received only a week prior to the report date ???

I would imagine the Lugers stayed at the (Rock Island Arsenal (Correction on 11-5-06 : Springfield Armory) for some time waiting to be matched up to the 1,000 holsters and then eventually distributed to various active military units for field tests. The holsters did not even get made and shipped out until January 1902.

The other Tests reports Reese metions in his book are dated from late 1902 and even 1903.


So here is a recap of the auction offering :

1. A bougs "report" of the Tests.

2. A holster that appears to be a early repro when El Paso Saddlery was not adding their name embossed on the back of the holster.

3. A pretty modern-looking case.

4. And a luger that has been boggered with, somwhat...

Geeze...Louise...
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Unread 11-04-2006, 08:43 PM   #10
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Good call, Pete, especially if the facts, as you stated them, are correct.
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Unread 11-05-2006, 04:19 PM   #11
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Doc,

Dates are from M. Reese' research and he even has copies of some of the dated documents in his book.

Just more phony-baloney stuff being peddled to the unsuspecting.
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Unread 11-05-2006, 04:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pete Ebbink
[B]According to M. Reese in his 1st. edition of his book "U.S. Test Trials 1900 Luger" on page 27 :

"...They were received in two shipment: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols..."

How would it have been possible for someone to write a report on Nov. 7, 1901 about how the guns performed when they were received only a week prior to the report date ???B]
The paper with this gun is ambiguous, and subject to misreading. The documents reproduced in Reese show that pistols were -shipped- to the 11th Cavalry at Fort Ethan Allen on Nov. 7, 1901.

This is indeed Capt. White's (Troop E) report. The reproduction in Reese is part of a summary report, so there is no date attached.

The pistol number in the report is, of course, a complete fabrication.

--Dwight
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Unread 11-05-2006, 05:42 PM   #13
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Dwight,

What page (s) in Reese are you referencing ?

On page 40 of my hardback, 1st. edition, Reese writes "...In 1902 and 1903, the test reports began to trickle in...".

On page 27, Reese summarizes that "...the pistols and magazines....were shipped to Governor Island, New York....in two shipments: October 26, 1901 - 800 pistols, and October 29, 1901 - 200 pistols. Shortly after their arrival, they were sent to the Springfield Armory for official acceptance by the Army. Springfield Armory distributed them as follow..."

I cannot fathom any of the commanding officers of 185 troops of cavelry receiving any of the lugers as early as Nov. 7, 1901; let alone be able to make some conclusions about the adequacy of the guns as this "report' seems to indicate.

Also, if the RI holsters did not arrive until Jan 1902, how effective would the field-trials have been if your men where not able to draw the lugers from the holsters while standing or riding a horse. I would think a commander would consider the holster an important part of the field-trials.
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Unread 11-05-2006, 06:49 PM   #14
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Pete,

Its p.97 of the softbound revised edition. It is a reproduction of the document, "List Of Troops Of U.S. Cavalry, to the Commanding Officer Of Each Of Which 5 Luger Pistols Have Been Shipped, On the Dates and to the Places specified."

The first entry is November 7, 1901, to Fort Ethan Allen. There are also shipping dates of November 9, November 12, and November 19 to other destinations, accounting for 900 pistols. Reese notes that the remaining 100 guns were the ones retained at Springfield Armory.

Capt. White's summary report is found on p.100.

The ambiguity of being able to read the framed document as the report date, rather than the issue date, is what is misleading.

--Dwight
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Unread 11-05-2006, 08:52 PM   #15
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Thanks, Dwight...

My 1st. edition hardback book stops at page 92 and I cannot find the documents you refer to. Reese must have added more with his 2nd. edition.
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Unread 11-06-2006, 12:13 PM   #16
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Hi Ron,

On the US Test holsters, there is usually some lettering near the bottom tip of the closure flap. Initials of "EHS"...one of the inspectors.

I don't think I see that on this holster offering by the RIA auction house, but maybe it is there and the photo did not pick up the detail (???) :



Photo of a TE holster from Albert Beliard's web site :

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Unread 11-06-2006, 01:33 PM   #17
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Hi Pete,
The RIA ad says the holster has "a faint three-letter inspector's stamp on the bottom on the flap", but I can't see it in the photo unless I really use my imagination. The ad goes on to say that it is marked "E.H.S." on the back under the Rock Island Arsenal stamp, which is correct.
My holster is stamped "P.G." upside down on the bottom of the flap, with the RIA/EHS stamp on the back. I can't read Albert's holster stamp but you can definitely tell there are some initials there.
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Unread 11-29-2006, 10:03 PM   #18
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Here are a couple of photos of a nice repro Test holster the El Paso Saddlery folks made initially, before they added their company logo to the back :


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