Question about Bulgarian holsters

rolandtg · 07-01-2009, 07:19 PM

Why do they seem to be so numerous?
I see many WWI & WWII era Bulgarian holsters for sale.

It's my understanding that Bulgaria, prior to WWI, got an order of ~10K pistols and then got maybe a couple of thousand more? during WWII.

But it seems like I see a lot more Bulgarian holsters than Bulgarian Lugers!
A lot of the WWII-era holsters appear perhaps unissued. Seems like a lot of them ended up in the Ukraine.

I know they're not terribly popular with Luger collectors and some of the WWII models are pretty crude compared to German holsters.

I actually like some of the WWI and WWII styles, at least the ones with the shorter flaps.

Anyway, is there anyone else out there besides me who has any love at all for these bargain holsters?

drbuster · 07-01-2009, 09:22 PM

Quite a few of those "Bulgarian" holsters are fake and/or repros. They look cool so I guess someone thinks they will be big sellers.

A.Mifsin · 07-02-2009, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Quite a few of those "Bulgarian" holsters are fake and/or repros. They look cool so I guess someone thinks they will be big sellers.

Ay hint from which points one can see that it is a fake holster ?
Alf.

alvin · 07-02-2009, 04:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolandtg

But it seems like I see a lot more Bulgarian holsters than Bulgarian Lugers!

The most likely senario is it being made in Bulgaria recently. Replica is always made with a context, this is what Bulgarian craftsman saw, so this is what he created for the local market. After the volume becomes big enough, some would "leak" into the US.

Vlim · 07-02-2009, 06:10 AM

The next question is: Why would someone bother to reproduce (fake) a Bulgarian holster, since there are enough of them around and they are relatively cheap?

It's like faking DDR equipment. Not worth the effort (yet).

Roland: I share your interest in the less-known luger holsters. There are so many variations around that it makes the (in my eyes overrated and grossly overpriced) German military holsters almost boring

rolandtg · 07-02-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

The next question is: Why would someone bother to reproduce (fake) a Bulgarian holster, since there are enough of them around and they are relatively cheap?

It's like faking DDR equipment. Not worth the effort (yet).

Roland: I share your interest in the less-known luger holsters. There are so many variations around that it makes the (in my eyes overrated and grossly overpriced) German military holsters almost boring

Yes, I haven't seen any that I thought were fakes. Yet.

I guess compared to other non-German holsters it seems like there's a lot of Bulgarian ones on the market these days at comparatively bargain prices.
I imagine that a lot of the German stuff that was stored away by the eastern block countries is probably gone and now they're working their way through the "B" and "C" merchandise...
I also like the Portuguese holsters as well but they're a little pricier and rarer.

Heinz · 07-02-2009, 12:51 PM

The fakes are out there in force. I did a tutorial on the other forum a while back.
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...garian+holster

Ron Wood · 07-03-2009, 01:10 AM

A lot of the Bulgarian holsters are of lesser quality and I do think many of the ones that are showing up at auction are of recent production, possibly using old hardware.

However, some of the Bulgarian holsters are as intricate and well made as their German counterparts, particularly the early ones. I have one that needs a bit of work (a candidate for a little bit of Jerry's time

) but it is quite nicely made and has some very unique features, including the only maker's mark I have seen on a Bulgarian holster. In addition to the double magazine pouch, it has a cleaning rod pouch which holds an ultra rare Bulgarian cleaning rod (acquired from Tom Armstrong...who incidently doesn't hold Bulgarian holsters in very high regard

). It needs a little cleaning and blocking and needs the closing strap replaced, but when done will make an excellent accessory for my 1906 Bulgarian Luger.

Heinz · 07-03-2009, 07:00 AM

Nice holster Ron! I especially like the makers mark.

klaus 3338 · 07-03-2009, 07:20 AM

Ron, what a beauty of a holster.
My holster came with a commercail 1906 type cleaning rod and donÂ´t has the marker stamp. But itÂ´s quality is outstanding. Best leather I ever saw on a holster and the workmanship is like this we have seen from Jerry Burney.
ItÂ´s rarer than a Navy or Krieghoff holster!

Navy · 07-03-2009, 08:20 AM

Ron,
To say that I hold Vulgarian holsters in low esteem is like saying Chairman Mao was a Chinese agrarian reformer.
Tom A

rolandtg · 07-03-2009, 10:33 AM

Wow, thanks for the pix. I found some other good photos here. http://www.landofborchardt.com/holsters.html#bulgarian

It looks like the Bulgarians made a lot of variations over the years. It's odd that most of them are unmarked.
Like I said above, I haven't seen any holsters I would consider "fakes" (although I don't doubt they exist) but I have seen a lot of well used, poorly stored re-dyed post-WWI holsters and a lot of WWII "era" holsters of mediocre quality that I think were probably made up into the '50's, maybe even '60's and many of them appear to be unissued but again poorly stored.

I bought a couple of "WWII" models a few years ago for $30-40 and I see the same holsters going for $100+ now. I don't know if that's being driven by interest or scarcity but it's a pretty good increase in "value".

Maybe someday someone will write a book about about these un-loved holsters, in the mean time I keep my eyes open for interesting variations.

Ron Wood · 07-04-2009, 02:11 AM

Klaus,
Thank you for posting the photos of your excellent example of this very scarce Bulgarian holster. I am particularly grateful for the illustration of the closing strap that my holster is missing. It gives me an accurate representation of the part that I must reproduce to restore my holster. I share your opinion that this type of holster is much more rare than Navy or Krieghoff holsters, but few people will appreciate its value.

Tom,
I am glad I did not understate your lack of appreciation for Bulgarian leather! However, I would like to point out to the other members that despite your expression of distain, you did hold Bulgarian “stuff” in high enough regard to accept my reasonable offer for your cleaning rod. It was a fair price for a scarce item and we both are the better off for the transaction. Thank you!

MFC · 07-04-2009, 06:25 PM

Ron,
Thats a very neat cleaning rod. First time I've seen one. Until now I would have thought that bubba screwed up a commercial rod.

A.Mifsin · 07-11-2009, 03:19 AM

Is this another variation of a Bulgarian Luger Holster?

Alf.

Heinz · 07-11-2009, 10:01 AM

Alf, you can take a look at this thread and see if that helps you decide.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=7164

rolandtg · 07-11-2009, 12:18 PM

Ok, as I understand it a Bulgarian holster made before, during, or slightly after WWI is "officially" considered "authentic"? Or is there some other criteria?

Now I have a holster that is almost identical to the holster represented as a "repro" in that thread.
And is basically Identical to the brown one pictured above. (but dyed black)

When I got my holster it was somewhat smashed, musty, and a little moldy having the authentic (to me) appearance of age and long term storage. It looks to me like at one time it was originally brown, not just raw leather but dyed brown like the one above. Then later it was dyed black. The leather is not "top quality" but not really cheap either.
I am not an expert but I am convinced this holster is certainly more than 20 years old, although I could be deceived.

If my holster is a "repro" it's not a modern one that I can tell and if it is someone is making a pretty substantial investment for a pretty meager return as I only paid about $35 for mine.

I guess my question is it possible that these holsters actually were made sometime after WWI for use by the Bulgarian military or police?
Or have they all been made in the last 20 years using old equipment like was stated above? Or is there a way to truly know?

Anyway, sorry to keep rehashing this. I'm just trying to understand the definition of "repro".

I guess I need to do some research, as like I said earlier, for some weird reason I actually like some of the Bulgarian holsters and I'd like to learn more about them.
I would appreciate recommendations for reading material if anyone has some.
Thanks everyone for your input.

Vlim · 07-11-2009, 01:38 PM

Hi,

My definition of 'Original' is when something was made during the time it was in use.

So, for example, if a police service used a pistol and its holster from say 1914 until 1971, every holster made between 1914 and 1971 is original in my view. Anything produced after the issue time is a reproduction.

Take the East-Germans, for example. Any hoster produced for the DDR between 1945 and 1991 is original, everything produced afterwards is a reproduction, etc...

There probably are exceptions to the rule, but then again exceptions confirm the rule

Heinz · 07-11-2009, 08:39 PM

Dana, at the time I did that tutorial I owned both holsters. I still have the rat and at 50$ I paid way too much IMHO. Mine does not smell musty, it smells like goat urine. These holsters are made from poor quality leather and are poorly sewn. I think they are unlikely to be from any military contract but they would work great for hauling a shooter to the range if their tanning salts are not corrosive.
Their poor craftsmanship would suggest they were not made before the end of WWII.
I do not know when they were made, or for who. I suspect they were turned out for the tourist trade after the fall of the Soviet Union.

07-01-2009, 07:19 PM	#1
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 472 Thanks: 363 Thanked 255 Times in 111 Posts	Question about Bulgarian holsters Why do they seem to be so numerous? I see many WWI & WWII era Bulgarian holsters for sale. It's my understanding that Bulgaria, prior to WWI, got an order of ~10K pistols and then got maybe a couple of thousand more? during WWII. But it seems like I see a lot more Bulgarian holsters than Bulgarian Lugers! A lot of the WWII-era holsters appear perhaps unissued. Seems like a lot of them ended up in the Ukraine. I know they're not terribly popular with Luger collectors and some of the WWII models are pretty crude compared to German holsters. I actually like some of the WWI and WWII styles, at least the ones with the shorter flaps. Anyway, is there anyone else out there besides me who has any love at all for these bargain holsters?

07-03-2009, 01:10 AM	#8
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	A lot of the Bulgarian holsters are of lesser quality and I do think many of the ones that are showing up at auction are of recent production, possibly using old hardware. However, some of the Bulgarian holsters are as intricate and well made as their German counterparts, particularly the early ones. I have one that needs a bit of work (a candidate for a little bit of Jerry's time) but it is quite nicely made and has some very unique features, including the only maker's mark I have seen on a Bulgarian holster. In addition to the double magazine pouch, it has a cleaning rod pouch which holds an ultra rare Bulgarian cleaning rod (acquired from Tom Armstrong...who incidently doesn't hold Bulgarian holsters in very high regard). It needs a little cleaning and blocking and needs the closing strap replaced, but when done will make an excellent accessory for my 1906 Bulgarian Luger. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-03-2009, 07:20 AM	#10
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 409 Times in 160 Posts	Ron, what a beauty of a holster. My holster came with a commercail 1906 type cleaning rod and donÂ´t has the marker stamp. But itÂ´s quality is outstanding. Best leather I ever saw on a holster and the workmanship is like this we have seen from Jerry Burney. ItÂ´s rarer than a Navy or Krieghoff holster! Attached Thumbnails

07-04-2009, 02:11 AM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	Klaus, Thank you for posting the photos of your excellent example of this very scarce Bulgarian holster. I am particularly grateful for the illustration of the closing strap that my holster is missing. It gives me an accurate representation of the part that I must reproduce to restore my holster. I share your opinion that this type of holster is much more rare than Navy or Krieghoff holsters, but few people will appreciate its value. Tom, I am glad I did not understate your lack of appreciation for Bulgarian leather! However, I would like to point out to the other members that despite your expression of distain, you did hold Bulgarian “stuff” in high enough regard to accept my reasonable offer for your cleaning rod. It was a fair price for a scarce item and we both are the better off for the transaction. Thank you! __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-04-2009, 06:25 PM	#14
MFC User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Louisiana Posts: 1,237 Thanks: 183 Thanked 281 Times in 162 Posts	Ron, Thats a very neat cleaning rod. First time I've seen one. Until now I would have thought that bubba screwed up a commercial rod. __________________ Mike C.

07-01-2009, 09:22 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Quite a few of those "Bulgarian" holsters are fake and/or repros. They look cool so I guess someone thinks they will be big sellers.

07-02-2009, 06:10 AM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,048 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,951 Times in 1,199 Posts	The next question is: Why would someone bother to reproduce (fake) a Bulgarian holster, since there are enough of them around and they are relatively cheap? It's like faking DDR equipment. Not worth the effort (yet). Roland: I share your interest in the less-known luger holsters. There are so many variations around that it makes the (in my eyes overrated and grossly overpriced) German military holsters almost boring

07-02-2009, 12:51 PM	#7
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	The fakes are out there in force. I did a tutorial on the other forum a while back. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...garian+holster

07-03-2009, 07:00 AM	#9
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Nice holster Ron! I especially like the makers mark.

07-03-2009, 08:20 AM	#11
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Ron, To say that I hold Vulgarian holsters in low esteem is like saying Chairman Mao was a Chinese agrarian reformer. Tom A

07-03-2009, 10:33 AM	#12
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 472 Thanks: 363 Thanked 255 Times in 111 Posts	Wow, thanks for the pix. I found some other good photos here. http://www.landofborchardt.com/holsters.html#bulgarian It looks like the Bulgarians made a lot of variations over the years. It's odd that most of them are unmarked. Like I said above, I haven't seen any holsters I would consider "fakes" (although I don't doubt they exist) but I have seen a lot of well used, poorly stored re-dyed post-WWI holsters and a lot of WWII "era" holsters of mediocre quality that I think were probably made up into the '50's, maybe even '60's and many of them appear to be unissued but again poorly stored. I bought a couple of "WWII" models a few years ago for $30-40 and I see the same holsters going for $100+ now. I don't know if that's being driven by interest or scarcity but it's a pretty good increase in "value". Maybe someday someone will write a book about about these un-loved holsters, in the mean time I keep my eyes open for interesting variations.

07-11-2009, 03:19 AM	#15
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Is this another variation of a Bulgarian Luger Holster? Alf. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I prefer a Luger

07-11-2009, 10:01 AM	#16
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Alf, you can take a look at this thread and see if that helps you decide. http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=7164

07-11-2009, 12:18 PM	#17
rolandtg User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Hill Country Posts: 472 Thanks: 363 Thanked 255 Times in 111 Posts	Ok, as I understand it a Bulgarian holster made before, during, or slightly after WWI is "officially" considered "authentic"? Or is there some other criteria? Now I have a holster that is almost identical to the holster represented as a "repro" in that thread. And is basically Identical to the brown one pictured above. (but dyed black) When I got my holster it was somewhat smashed, musty, and a little moldy having the authentic (to me) appearance of age and long term storage. It looks to me like at one time it was originally brown, not just raw leather but dyed brown like the one above. Then later it was dyed black. The leather is not "top quality" but not really cheap either. I am not an expert but I am convinced this holster is certainly more than 20 years old, although I could be deceived. If my holster is a "repro" it's not a modern one that I can tell and if it is someone is making a pretty substantial investment for a pretty meager return as I only paid about $35 for mine. I guess my question is it possible that these holsters actually were made sometime after WWI for use by the Bulgarian military or police? Or have they all been made in the last 20 years using old equipment like was stated above? Or is there a way to truly know? Anyway, sorry to keep rehashing this. I'm just trying to understand the definition of "repro". I guess I need to do some research, as like I said earlier, for some weird reason I actually like some of the Bulgarian holsters and I'd like to learn more about them. I would appreciate recommendations for reading material if anyone has some. Thanks everyone for your input.

07-11-2009, 01:38 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,048 Thanks: 1,034 Thanked 3,951 Times in 1,199 Posts	Hi, My definition of 'Original' is when something was made during the time it was in use. So, for example, if a police service used a pistol and its holster from say 1914 until 1971, every holster made between 1914 and 1971 is original in my view. Anything produced after the issue time is a reproduction. Take the East-Germans, for example. Any hoster produced for the DDR between 1945 and 1991 is original, everything produced afterwards is a reproduction, etc... There probably are exceptions to the rule, but then again exceptions confirm the rule

07-11-2009, 08:39 PM	#19
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Dana, at the time I did that tutorial I owned both holsters. I still have the rat and at 50$ I paid way too much IMHO. Mine does not smell musty, it smells like goat urine. These holsters are made from poor quality leather and are poorly sewn. I think they are unlikely to be from any military contract but they would work great for hauling a shooter to the range if their tanning salts are not corrosive. Their poor craftsmanship would suggest they were not made before the end of WWII. I do not know when they were made, or for who. I suspect they were turned out for the tourist trade after the fall of the Soviet Union.