Unusual Holster Marking

Robert Wiggins · 02-04-2009, 08:54 PM

The holster I have has a cleaning tool holder running parallel and just below the takedown tool holder. I have not seen this on any of the holsters that I have viewed on WEB sites.

Is this uncommon and restricted to only a few makers?

I would appreciate some insight into this.

I include two views of my holster

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2009, 09:00 PM

I think Jan Still states these were first made in 1926 (?) and I know these were first seen in 1926 and especially on police holsters.

It was not done this way for very long.

If you want to trade it, I am sure I could come up with something for it and the cleaning rod

Ed

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2009, 09:22 PM

It is possible it was issued; however, holsters were teamed up with lugers in many ways.

1. issued by a unit
2. picked up or exchanged when one was needed by a german GI
3. picked up by the returning US GI
4. Put together years later

wlyon · 02-04-2009, 09:30 PM

The only ones I have seen were dated 1934? I have two both 1934? Were the 1926 holsters made this way or converted? Bill

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2009, 09:32 PM

Bill, the two I have and the other 3 or 4 I have seen were all WaA18 and made for Simson's and appear they were made this way originally.

ed

Robert Wiggins · 02-04-2009, 09:36 PM

Gentlemen;

Do any of your holsters have the "arrow parallel and pointing to the right as I have identified in my previous post?

Edward Tinker · 02-04-2009, 09:52 PM

I have not seen a marking like this before, do not beleive it is an official marking.

ed

Ron Smith · 02-04-2009, 09:58 PM

I have Reichswehr unit marked Imperial dated holsters with this cleaning rod pouch conversion. It was a post WWI addition to military holsters, and I believe some Police holsters. If Jan says 1926? That's probably when they started adding them.

Robert,

The "arrow" on your holster isn't a standard marking that I have ever seen. Possibly a personal identification mark added by the soldier it was issued to.

Ron

lugerholsterrepair · 02-05-2009, 12:19 AM

Ed, Bill & Ron seem to have covered all the bases here!

WW1 holsters converted-Likely for Police use. Probably for general Army use as well as the Police had very specific cleaning rods during the Weimar era.
1926-29 holsters made or converted..hard to say really.
1934 holster deffinately made with the cleaning rod apparatus..the only year I know of for sure. Not all of them have it though.
It would be very difficult to say if a holster was actually made with it originally. It was a simple thing to add on.
The 1934 with this on it has a very large stud on the tool pouch. This was to accomodate the double leather of the tool pouch and the cleaning rod strap.

Jerry Burney

alanint · 02-05-2009, 07:17 AM

This version seems to have only one leather cover flap. It appears that the longer cleaning tool flap is meant to cover BOTH the cleaning and take down tools

Robert Wiggins · 02-05-2009, 11:47 AM

Gentlemen;

With respect to the comment that the holster mark may be a personal identification mark, I can only add that the mark was obviously impressed by a stamping device and not carved in or impressed by free hand. The edges are too clearly defined and flat edged. How likely is it that a soldier would have a tool to do this? Could it have been done by a field distribution depot of not done by the maker?

If you look closely you can see that the strap closure for the takedown tool is longer than normal in order to contain the cleaning rod. You can also see that if it was not original and a replacement for a shorter strap, that they must have stitched it into the identical holes since the stitching is very tight and there is no additional puncture holes. This leads me to suspect that the holster was made this way unless someone took considerable time to hand stitch into the orignal holes. I will say that I am far from an expert on this matter so I defer to anyone who is. Comments please!

alanint · 02-07-2009, 11:28 AM

This is a stretch, I'll admit, but could this be a British "Broad Arrow" mark?

Ron Smith · 02-07-2009, 11:58 AM

Your holster could very well be a new 20s production. My statement was to clear up the thought that these were produced or converted at a later date.

I don't believe the "arrow" is a British Broad Arrow. They were usually very plain and distict.

A personal identification mark could very well have been applied with a tool. I'm just saying that it's not a commonly found marking of any sort that I have seen on a holster. And not any known unit or military marking that I know of.

Ron

Robert Wiggins · 02-07-2009, 06:40 PM

Thank you gentlemen for your input. I guess I will always be intrigued by the arrow mark. I would certainly like to know if anyone else has one the same. Hopefully this post will come to the attention of someone on the forum who may have a holster with this mark or have seen one.

Any suggestions as to other venues that I might interface with besides the forum. I know there is a fantastic amount of knowledge available through the forum membership, but I also recognize that there is always something new discover in this field and that there may be some other sources I should check with.

"lugerholsterrepair" identified 1934 as a year that jag pouches were found and stated the following "The 1934 with this on it has a very large stud on the tool pouch. This was to accomodate the double leather of the tool pouch and the cleaning rod strap." Not having ever seen one of the holsters, I ask if the stud on mine seems any larger than normal? I suspect not but am not sure.

alanint · 02-07-2009, 09:16 PM

I would say it is a standard stud since the design of this holster requires securing only one, not two separate flaps

lugerholsterrepair · 02-07-2009, 09:47 PM

Robert, Your closure stud seems to be of the standard size..what I would expect. I have never seen the large studs on anything but 1934's.
I have found many holsters have the closure flap of the tool pouch cut short when the jag pouch is installed. This is because... as Alinint says..the closure straps are too thick for the small stud.
Yours was probably removed altogether and the long cleaning rod strap was used to hold both the rod and the tool. It would not be adequate to hold in a tool that fit loosely in my opinion. Most tools fit tightly though so it was likely not a problem.

Jerry Burney

John Sabato · 02-09-2009, 11:58 AM

This thread has been moved to the Holster forum at the request of the original poster.

klaus 3338 · 06-19-2009, 03:06 PM

According to my observations the cleaning rod holder was introduced a few years after the Great War.
Reason was that all P08 got the cleaning rod during the Weimar time (Reichswehr). In the old Army there was only 1 rod for 6 Lugers.
The earliest new holsters I saw with the holder was made in 1926. 1922 made holsters donÂ´t have the cleaning rod holder. I have many holsters of the Imperial Army and also Imperial Navy with (Weimar time) added cleaning rod holder.
The last holsters got the holder in 1934 because the RG34 (ReinigungsgerÃ¤t (19)34 was introduced.

02-04-2009, 08:54 PM	#1
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Unusual Holster Marking The holster I have has a cleaning tool holder running parallel and just below the takedown tool holder. I have not seen this on any of the holsters that I have viewed on WEB sites. Is this uncommon and restricted to only a few makers? I would appreciate some insight into this. I include two views of my holster Attached Thumbnails

02-04-2009, 09:00 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I think Jan Still states these were first made in 1926 (?) and I know these were first seen in 1926 and especially on police holsters. It was not done this way for very long. If you want to trade it, I am sure I could come up with something for it and the cleaning rod Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-04-2009, 09:30 PM	#4
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,619 Thanks: 3,145 Thanked 2,531 Times in 943 Posts	The only ones I have seen were dated 1934? I have two both 1934? Were the 1926 holsters made this way or converted? Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

02-04-2009, 09:32 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Bill, the two I have and the other 3 or 4 I have seen were all WaA18 and made for Simson's and appear they were made this way originally. ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-04-2009, 09:36 PM	#6
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Holster mark ? Gentlemen; Do any of your holsters have the "arrow parallel and pointing to the right as I have identified in my previous post?

02-04-2009, 09:22 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	It is possible it was issued; however, holsters were teamed up with lugers in many ways. 1. issued by a unit 2. picked up or exchanged when one was needed by a german GI 3. picked up by the returning US GI 4. Put together years later

02-04-2009, 09:52 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I have not seen a marking like this before, do not beleive it is an official marking. ed

02-04-2009, 09:58 PM	#8
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I have Reichswehr unit marked Imperial dated holsters with this cleaning rod pouch conversion. It was a post WWI addition to military holsters, and I believe some Police holsters. If Jan says 1926? That's probably when they started adding them. Robert, The "arrow" on your holster isn't a standard marking that I have ever seen. Possibly a personal identification mark added by the soldier it was issued to. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said... Last edited by Ron Smith; 02-07-2009 at 11:54 AM.

02-05-2009, 12:19 AM	#9
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Ed, Bill & Ron seem to have covered all the bases here! WW1 holsters converted-Likely for Police use. Probably for general Army use as well as the Police had very specific cleaning rods during the Weimar era. 1926-29 holsters made or converted..hard to say really. 1934 holster deffinately made with the cleaning rod apparatus..the only year I know of for sure. Not all of them have it though. It would be very difficult to say if a holster was actually made with it originally. It was a simple thing to add on. The 1934 with this on it has a very large stud on the tool pouch. This was to accomodate the double leather of the tool pouch and the cleaning rod strap. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-05-2009, 07:17 AM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	This version seems to have only one leather cover flap. It appears that the longer cleaning tool flap is meant to cover BOTH the cleaning and take down tools

02-05-2009, 11:47 AM	#11
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	additional input on holster mark Gentlemen; With respect to the comment that the holster mark may be a personal identification mark, I can only add that the mark was obviously impressed by a stamping device and not carved in or impressed by free hand. The edges are too clearly defined and flat edged. How likely is it that a soldier would have a tool to do this? Could it have been done by a field distribution depot of not done by the maker? If you look closely you can see that the strap closure for the takedown tool is longer than normal in order to contain the cleaning rod. You can also see that if it was not original and a replacement for a shorter strap, that they must have stitched it into the identical holes since the stitching is very tight and there is no additional puncture holes. This leads me to suspect that the holster was made this way unless someone took considerable time to hand stitch into the orignal holes. I will say that I am far from an expert on this matter so I defer to anyone who is. Comments please!

02-07-2009, 11:28 AM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	This is a stretch, I'll admit, but could this be a British "Broad Arrow" mark?

02-07-2009, 11:58 AM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Your holster could very well be a new 20s production. My statement was to clear up the thought that these were produced or converted at a later date. I don't believe the "arrow" is a British Broad Arrow. They were usually very plain and distict. A personal identification mark could very well have been applied with a tool. I'm just saying that it's not a commonly found marking of any sort that I have seen on a holster. And not any known unit or military marking that I know of. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

02-07-2009, 06:40 PM	#14
Robert Wiggins User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 142 Thanks: 16 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks Ron & Alainint Thank you gentlemen for your input. I guess I will always be intrigued by the arrow mark. I would certainly like to know if anyone else has one the same. Hopefully this post will come to the attention of someone on the forum who may have a holster with this mark or have seen one. Any suggestions as to other venues that I might interface with besides the forum. I know there is a fantastic amount of knowledge available through the forum membership, but I also recognize that there is always something new discover in this field and that there may be some other sources I should check with. "lugerholsterrepair" identified 1934 as a year that jag pouches were found and stated the following "The 1934 with this on it has a very large stud on the tool pouch. This was to accomodate the double leather of the tool pouch and the cleaning rod strap." Not having ever seen one of the holsters, I ask if the stud on mine seems any larger than normal? I suspect not but am not sure.

02-07-2009, 09:16 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	I would say it is a standard stud since the design of this holster requires securing only one, not two separate flaps

02-07-2009, 09:47 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Robert, Your closure stud seems to be of the standard size..what I would expect. I have never seen the large studs on anything but 1934's. I have found many holsters have the closure flap of the tool pouch cut short when the jag pouch is installed. This is because... as Alinint says..the closure straps are too thick for the small stud. Yours was probably removed altogether and the long cleaning rod strap was used to hold both the rod and the tool. It would not be adequate to hold in a tool that fit loosely in my opinion. Most tools fit tightly though so it was likely not a problem. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-09-2009, 11:58 AM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	This thread has been moved to the Holster forum at the request of the original poster. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

06-19-2009, 03:06 PM	#18
klaus 3338 User Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Germany Posts: 517 Thanks: 0 Thanked 409 Times in 160 Posts	According to my observations the cleaning rod holder was introduced a few years after the Great War. Reason was that all P08 got the cleaning rod during the Weimar time (Reichswehr). In the old Army there was only 1 rod for 6 Lugers. The earliest new holsters I saw with the holder was made in 1926. 1922 made holsters donÂ´t have the cleaning rod holder. I have many holsters of the Imperial Army and also Imperial Navy with (Weimar time) added cleaning rod holder. The last holsters got the holder in 1934 because the RG34 (ReinigungsgerÃ¤t (19)34 was introduced.