Japanese Luger Story...

Pete Ebbink · 01-30-2004, 04:44 PM

Had the opportunity to sit next to an 86 year old WWI veteren during my airplane travels this week...

Initially folks thought he was just some senile oldtimer rambling on and on about nothing. The 30-something year old sales hot-shot sitting next to the old vet was just squirming in his seat, wondering when the flight would end. When the vet got up to de-water, I asked to trade seats with the younger fellow.

As the vet came back, he shared his story of his experiences for the battle to capture the island of Okinawa...

He was part of the behind the scenes group of soldiers responsible for handling and processsing the Japanese prisoners (if they did surrender).

I steered the discussion towards the topic of hand guns the Japanese were surrendering when they came in.

This old vet confirmed many Japanese small arms, but he said they processed 200-300 Lugers as well, taken from the enemy soldiers.

I questioned him about more details of these "Lugers" as I understand many of our boys confused the Nambu pistols with the German lugers. He was very clear on this point : The German lugers had a flat top portion with a very "fancy" DWM marked on the flat portion. I also asked him if any "flower" markings showed up on the chamber areas. His reply was no...

He couldn't remember any other details or markings on the lugers...

He had taken some lugers home for himself but those were sold off many years ago in the '60's...

I felt very priviledged to be able to spend the remaining hour of the flight hearing more of this fellow's story. He was looking to just let folks know he was there and lost many friends...said the Allies lost nearly 50,000 soldiers taking that island and the Japanese lost hundreds of thousands of their boys...

It is not often that one runs into a surviving WWII vet and I was just lucky enough to be on he right airplane to hear this story...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Vlim · 01-31-2004, 12:41 PM

Hi Pete,

I want to bet that most of these lugers came from Dutch east indies arsenals the Japanese had overrun during the early 40s.

It would have been nice to hear him describe brass sideplates

George Anderson · 01-31-2004, 12:56 PM

Hello Pete, you speak of "the allies" losing 50,000 troops taking Okinawa. Who might these "allies" have been? geo

Pete Ebbink · 01-31-2004, 01:08 PM

Hello Gerben,

I assumed all pistols he was taking about would be brass side-plated...so I did not specifically ask him to confirm that point (fault on my part, I guess...).

Hello George,

I was trying to use the words this fellow told me in his story. Not being a WWII history buff, I would not know if Allied troops fought along side USA soldiers or not...but he did use the word "allies" and not merely "GI's"...so maybe there were some Brits and Australians along side our troops...(just a WAG..)...

I did tell him about my father's service in the Dutch-Indonesian army and how they got their butts kicked by the Japanese and how some of the lugers probably fell into Japanese hands and re-armament. I was surprised to learn that so many ended up on this island, later, to be confiscated by the US troops. If 200-300 were found, how many were with the Japanese on this one island...?

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John -Melb · 02-01-2004, 07:09 AM

I think you're wrong on that supposition Mr van Vlimmeren. Surely if they were Dutch Lugers they'ed be marked "Vickers Ltd". The old soldier described them as having DWM markings.

Perhaps (and here's a thought) they were WW1 vintage Lugers captured when Japan took over German possesions in the Far East and Pacific at the start of the First World War. The Japanese decided at some later date to issue them but issued them only to certain units so as to restrict ammunition resupply problems.

Another thought is they may have arrived in Japanese possession s "war reparations" following the First World War. I remember some years ago being told by an old British officer that the best rifles he ever encountered in Japanese hands were British Mk1 Lee Enfields the Japanese were given following the First World War. He claimed that late in the war the Japanese had a Division in Malaya armed exclusively with these rifles.

The use of captured or apparently non-regualtion arms was not that uncommon. The Germans had a Division on occupation duties in France armed exclusively with British arms captured from the BEF or left behind at Dunkirk. The Australian garrison at Tobruk (going on many photos taken during the seige) appear to have made use of Italian Breda M30 light machine guns.

Vlim · 02-01-2004, 07:16 AM

John,

Please note that only a part (about half) of Dutch KNIL issue lugers were marked 'Vickers'. The rest was marked DWM.

Your other suggestion doesn't make much sense, since Japan and Germany had a great deal of contact, exchanging people, materials and ideas.

If Japan wanted Lugers, they'd have gotten fresh ones with a factory discount

Pete Ebbink · 02-01-2004, 12:09 PM

What bothered me a bit about this old soldier's story was the number of lugers he recalled handling (i.e. 200-300).

Assuming 20-30% of all lugers on the island were actually turned it with surrendering Japanese soldiers, it would indicate that a lot more lugers made there way onto the island to begin with. Maybe the old soldier's story "grew" over the years and not as many lugers were handed over as he recalled...nearly 60 years later...

But I appreciated being able to hear this old soldier's tale, nevertheless...

p.s. The 1928 Dutch KOL contract with DWM was for 3,820 lugers which came out after the Vicker's run of lugers, which occurred in 1922. There were another ~ 1500 lugers issued by DWM to the Dutch Navy in the 1928-1930 timeframe as well. (Source : "The Dutch Luger" book by Martens & deVries, page 245)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 02-01-2004, 01:09 PM

Pete, people exagerrate, but with time, he might have seen 20 lugers and 80 Nambus and he just remembered seeing all of the Lugers? Of course, he might have seen that many too? You just never know? Afterall, there were thousands in the Dutch Indies?

Cool story my friend and talking to a real vet is a fast going pleasure as they pass on.

Ed

Vlim · 02-02-2004, 08:36 AM

Hi,

The Japenese Luger continues to be a nice mystery, isn't it? I know of at least one Dutch luger rig with US capture papers that proved that Dutch lugers were actually in Japanese hands.

I even doubt that many Dutch lugers even had the brass sideplates at that time since the order to replace previous unit markings was given as late as 1939 and in those turbulent times the replacement of sideplates was likely to be the most important issue.

Oh, Pete, please note that 4181 DWM-marked lugers were also delivered to the Dutch before the start of WW1, getting the total of DWM-marked Dutch lugers to some 7000+.

What is perticularly interesting is that the troops that were issued the 1913-1914 batch of DWM lugers were the ones most likely to get in trouble with Japanese troops first. (Cavelry, Artillery, Infantry and Fortress Troops).

Dwight Gruber · 02-02-2004, 10:56 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren:
I even doubt that many Dutch lugers even had the brass sideplates at that time since the order to replace previous unit markings was given as late as 1939 and in those turbulent times the replacement of sideplates was likely to be the most important issue.<hr /></blockquote>Gerben,

Are there surviving documents or contemporary narratives concerning this practice? Martens and DeVries thoroughly discuss unit marking, but don't go into their decommissioning. I understand that many of the brass identification plates were filed blank, it would seem to be a much easier solution than their removal, which M.&DV. note as a difficult thing to do.

Please don't think that I am questioning your assertions here, I have a fondness for Dutch Lugers and am eager for new information about them.

--Dwight

Frank H · 02-02-2004, 11:02 PM

Pete
Its a good story. Even if its full of holes, I'm sure the ole boy enjoyed telling it as much as you enjoyed listening to it. It made his trip and brought back forgotten memories. By the way - who did he sell them to????
Frank H

Pete Ebbink · 02-03-2004, 12:18 AM

Hello Frank,

The old fellow said he sold them off, one piece at a time, over a few years to friends and local gun shops...as he needed money. Did not sound like he brought many home. He used to live in New Jersey...he now lives in an assisted living home in Oakland, CA and they do not allow him to have any guns at all. Still has his army rifle (would that be a M-1 Garand...???) but his son is caretaker of that...in the Oakland, CA area.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

John -Melb · 02-03-2004, 05:10 AM

"Please note that only a part (about half) of Dutch KNIL issue lugers were marked 'Vickers'. The rest was marked DWM."

Gerben,
Oops sorry, didn't realise that. Dutch Lugers are as rare as rocking horse poo in this part of the world. If over half Dutch Lugers were marked DWM then I guess the Dutch Indies was where the "Son's of Nippon" got their Lugers from!
I'll take my foot out of my mouth now.

Vlim · 02-03-2004, 08:12 AM

Hi John,

No offense. The Brass plates are a story in it's self. Originally, the KNIL lugers were marked at the back of the frame just above the lanyard loop. These marks were punched in, German style.

In the mid-30s a new system was devised, using small brass plates soldered to the trigger guard. This proved to be quite cumbersome and the result wat that new guidlines were issued in 1939, introducing the brass sideplates.

So the brass sideplates were a relatively late addition. After 1945, when the Dutch got their colonies back, they started building up the KNIL army again and as a result surviving guns were reissued. The shortage of 9mm ammo meant that most lugers ended up in Staff/HQ arsenals where they saw little or no use. The active groups were armed with surplus US and UK material because of the excellent ammo supply.

This means that a wide variety of Dutch luger markings exist: Unmarked, Brass trigger plate, Brass Sideplate, unmarked brass sideplate, removed brass sideplate, Indionesian republic marked, etc...

One of our forum members bought a Dutch sideplate marked luger assembly with capture papers that documented the capture of the gun in October, 1945. This gun was especially nice, since the sideplate had been marked in the timespace between 1941 and 1942, when the east-indies airforces were reorganized to form the 'new' Militaire Luchtvaartafdeling KNIL (Military airforce KNIL or MLK, also mentioned as MLA). This replaced the L.A. marked sideplates mentioned in 'Martens & De Vries'. The reorganizations in 1941 were done to prepare the KNIL for the battle with the Japanese.

Dutch lugers remained in service from 1945 until 1950 when the KNIL was disbanded. Remaining guns went back to the Netherlands and were eventually sold off.

01-30-2004, 04:44 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Japanese Luger Story... Had the opportunity to sit next to an 86 year old WWI veteren during my airplane travels this week... Initially folks thought he was just some senile oldtimer rambling on and on about nothing. The 30-something year old sales hot-shot sitting next to the old vet was just squirming in his seat, wondering when the flight would end. When the vet got up to de-water, I asked to trade seats with the younger fellow. As the vet came back, he shared his story of his experiences for the battle to capture the island of Okinawa... He was part of the behind the scenes group of soldiers responsible for handling and processsing the Japanese prisoners (if they did surrender). I steered the discussion towards the topic of hand guns the Japanese were surrendering when they came in. This old vet confirmed many Japanese small arms, but he said they processed 200-300 Lugers as well, taken from the enemy soldiers. I questioned him about more details of these "Lugers" as I understand many of our boys confused the Nambu pistols with the German lugers. He was very clear on this point : The German lugers had a flat top portion with a very "fancy" DWM marked on the flat portion. I also asked him if any "flower" markings showed up on the chamber areas. His reply was no... He couldn't remember any other details or markings on the lugers... He had taken some lugers home for himself but those were sold off many years ago in the '60's... I felt very priviledged to be able to spend the remaining hour of the flight hearing more of this fellow's story. He was looking to just let folks know he was there and lost many friends...said the Allies lost nearly 50,000 soldiers taking that island and the Japanese lost hundreds of thousands of their boys... It is not often that one runs into a surviving WWII vet and I was just lucky enough to be on he right airplane to hear this story... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-01-2004, 01:09 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,926 Thanks: 2,014 Thanked 4,523 Times in 2,089 Posts	Pete, people exagerrate, but with time, he might have seen 20 lugers and 80 Nambus and he just remembered seeing all of the Lugers? Of course, he might have seen that many too? You just never know? Afterall, there were thousands in the Dutch Indies? Cool story my friend and talking to a real vet is a fast going pleasure as they pass on. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-02-2004, 10:56 AM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,894 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,290 Times in 426 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren: <strong>I even doubt that many Dutch lugers even had the brass sideplates at that time since the order to replace previous unit markings was given as late as 1939 and in those turbulent times the replacement of sideplates was likely to be the most important issue.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Gerben, Are there surviving documents or contemporary narratives concerning this practice? Martens and DeVries thoroughly discuss unit marking, but don't go into their decommissioning. I understand that many of the brass identification plates were filed blank, it would seem to be a much easier solution than their removal, which M.&DV. note as a difficult thing to do. Please don't think that I am questioning your assertions here, I have a fondness for Dutch Lugers and am eager for new information about them. --Dwight

01-31-2004, 12:41 PM	#2
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Pete, I want to bet that most of these lugers came from Dutch east indies arsenals the Japanese had overrun during the early 40s. It would have been nice to hear him describe brass sideplates

01-31-2004, 12:56 PM	#3
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,528 Times in 787 Posts	Hello Pete, you speak of "the allies" losing 50,000 troops taking Okinawa. Who might these "allies" have been? geo

01-31-2004, 01:08 PM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Gerben, I assumed all pistols he was taking about would be brass side-plated...so I did not specifically ask him to confirm that point (fault on my part, I guess...). Hello George, I was trying to use the words this fellow told me in his story. Not being a WWII history buff, I would not know if Allied troops fought along side USA soldiers or not...but he did use the word "allies" and not merely "GI's"...so maybe there were some Brits and Australians along side our troops...(just a WAG..)... I did tell him about my father's service in the Dutch-Indonesian army and how they got their butts kicked by the Japanese and how some of the lugers probably fell into Japanese hands and re-armament. I was surprised to learn that so many ended up on this island, later, to be confiscated by the US troops. If 200-300 were found, how many were with the Japanese on this one island...? Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-01-2004, 07:09 AM	#5
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think you're wrong on that supposition Mr van Vlimmeren. Surely if they were Dutch Lugers they'ed be marked "Vickers Ltd". The old soldier described them as having DWM markings. Perhaps (and here's a thought) they were WW1 vintage Lugers captured when Japan took over German possesions in the Far East and Pacific at the start of the First World War. The Japanese decided at some later date to issue them but issued them only to certain units so as to restrict ammunition resupply problems. Another thought is they may have arrived in Japanese possession s "war reparations" following the First World War. I remember some years ago being told by an old British officer that the best rifles he ever encountered in Japanese hands were British Mk1 Lee Enfields the Japanese were given following the First World War. He claimed that late in the war the Japanese had a Division in Malaya armed exclusively with these rifles. The use of captured or apparently non-regualtion arms was not that uncommon. The Germans had a Division on occupation duties in France armed exclusively with British arms captured from the BEF or left behind at Dunkirk. The Australian garrison at Tobruk (going on many photos taken during the seige) appear to have made use of Italian Breda M30 light machine guns.

02-01-2004, 07:16 AM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	John, Please note that only a part (about half) of Dutch KNIL issue lugers were marked 'Vickers'. The rest was marked DWM. Your other suggestion doesn't make much sense, since Japan and Germany had a great deal of contact, exchanging people, materials and ideas. If Japan wanted Lugers, they'd have gotten fresh ones with a factory discount

02-01-2004, 12:09 PM	#7
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	What bothered me a bit about this old soldier's story was the number of lugers he recalled handling (i.e. 200-300). Assuming 20-30% of all lugers on the island were actually turned it with surrendering Japanese soldiers, it would indicate that a lot more lugers made there way onto the island to begin with. Maybe the old soldier's story "grew" over the years and not as many lugers were handed over as he recalled...nearly 60 years later... But I appreciated being able to hear this old soldier's tale, nevertheless... p.s. The 1928 Dutch KOL contract with DWM was for 3,820 lugers which came out after the Vicker's run of lugers, which occurred in 1922. There were another ~ 1500 lugers issued by DWM to the Dutch Navy in the 1928-1930 timeframe as well. (Source : "The Dutch Luger" book by Martens & deVries, page 245) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-02-2004, 08:36 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, The Japenese Luger continues to be a nice mystery, isn't it? I know of at least one Dutch luger rig with US capture papers that proved that Dutch lugers were actually in Japanese hands. I even doubt that many Dutch lugers even had the brass sideplates at that time since the order to replace previous unit markings was given as late as 1939 and in those turbulent times the replacement of sideplates was likely to be the most important issue. Oh, Pete, please note that 4181 DWM-marked lugers were also delivered to the Dutch before the start of WW1, getting the total of DWM-marked Dutch lugers to some 7000+. What is perticularly interesting is that the troops that were issued the 1913-1914 batch of DWM lugers were the ones most likely to get in trouble with Japanese troops first. (Cavelry, Artillery, Infantry and Fortress Troops).

02-02-2004, 11:02 PM	#11
Frank H User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: N. FL Posts: 90 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Pete Its a good story. Even if its full of holes, I'm sure the ole boy enjoyed telling it as much as you enjoyed listening to it. It made his trip and brought back forgotten memories. By the way - who did he sell them to???? Frank H

02-03-2004, 12:18 AM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Frank, The old fellow said he sold them off, one piece at a time, over a few years to friends and local gun shops...as he needed money. Did not sound like he brought many home. He used to live in New Jersey...he now lives in an assisted living home in Oakland, CA and they do not allow him to have any guns at all. Still has his army rifle (would that be a M-1 Garand...???) but his son is caretaker of that...in the Oakland, CA area. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

02-03-2004, 05:10 AM	#13
John -Melb User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Peoples Republic of Australia! Posts: 145 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"Please note that only a part (about half) of Dutch KNIL issue lugers were marked 'Vickers'. The rest was marked DWM." Gerben, Oops sorry, didn't realise that. Dutch Lugers are as rare as rocking horse poo in this part of the world. If over half Dutch Lugers were marked DWM then I guess the Dutch Indies was where the "Son's of Nippon" got their Lugers from! I'll take my foot out of my mouth now.

02-03-2004, 08:12 AM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,987 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi John, No offense. The Brass plates are a story in it's self. Originally, the KNIL lugers were marked at the back of the frame just above the lanyard loop. These marks were punched in, German style. In the mid-30s a new system was devised, using small brass plates soldered to the trigger guard. This proved to be quite cumbersome and the result wat that new guidlines were issued in 1939, introducing the brass sideplates. So the brass sideplates were a relatively late addition. After 1945, when the Dutch got their colonies back, they started building up the KNIL army again and as a result surviving guns were reissued. The shortage of 9mm ammo meant that most lugers ended up in Staff/HQ arsenals where they saw little or no use. The active groups were armed with surplus US and UK material because of the excellent ammo supply. This means that a wide variety of Dutch luger markings exist: Unmarked, Brass trigger plate, Brass Sideplate, unmarked brass sideplate, removed brass sideplate, Indionesian republic marked, etc... One of our forum members bought a Dutch sideplate marked luger assembly with capture papers that documented the capture of the gun in October, 1945. This gun was especially nice, since the sideplate had been marked in the timespace between 1941 and 1942, when the east-indies airforces were reorganized to form the 'new' Militaire Luchtvaartafdeling KNIL (Military airforce KNIL or MLK, also mentioned as MLA). This replaced the L.A. marked sideplates mentioned in 'Martens & De Vries'. The reorganizations in 1941 were done to prepare the KNIL for the battle with the Japanese. Dutch lugers remained in service from 1945 until 1950 when the KNIL was disbanded. Remaining guns went back to the Netherlands and were eventually sold off.