New to forum - need help with valuation

[JimS]

As a newbie to both the forum and Luger ownership, I'd like to ask for some assistance with these two pistols that I inherited from my father-in-law.

I have a 1936 and a 1938 dated pistol that I have photos of located at:

http://jlstuht.freewebspace.com/lugers/Lugers.html

All the S/N match (except for the mags) on each weapon, and I have holsters for both. Unfortunately, only one of the holsters has the extra mag and tool.

Any help you folks can provide as to value? Are either of these "collector-quality" or are they shooters?

If I need to add any futher info, just let me know.

Thanks in advance,

Jim S

[RockinWR]

Jim,
* Welcome to the Forum. Thanks for the post/pictures. Some more info will help answer your questions.
* As you may already know, Jan Still in his book Third Reich Lugers estimates Mauser (S/42)made 89,500 P.08's in 1936 and 113,800 P.08's in 1938.
* Your 1936 is rust blued, bears a lower case suffix letter(f to p) with the frame's full numeric serial number, bears the droop wing Eagle/63 Waffen Inspector stamps and the mid (I think)style proof eagle. It suffers some localized, shallow(peppered) pitting and patina'd (side plate) blue loss which lowers its condition assessment.
* Your nicer 1938 is hot salt blued, bears a lower case suffix letter(b to n) with the frame's full numeric s/n, has the stick wing Eagle/63 or sE/83 Waffen Inspector stamps and the mid style proof eagle. Blue loss appears to be mostly honest holster/handling induced in the classic expected locations.
* Suffix letters from the pistols may help us pin when in each year the piece was manufactured and check to see if a matching mag has been reported.
* Full S/N's(w/suffix), description(tin/blue color tube) & acceptance eagle/# of the 3 mags may help another collector find a matching mag for his pistol.
* I suspect your holsters are maker's name coded/dated. If only a 3 letter maker's code is present, we can help ID the maker's name. The acceptance E/# would aid this research.
* Your two question are: quality & value
* IMHO: They are both collector & NOT "shooter" quality from what I can see from your digitals. This presumes all original (factory) condition, grips solid & matched, fully functional, and all numbers inside/outside match.
* Value = % condition, % original condition, rarity, & % condition. Value = what Bill of Sale $'s a motivated seller and a knowledgeable buyer are willing to agree upon on any single day given full and accurate disclosure.
* Value has no one single answer. For instance: Is your value query for insurance(time future replacement), inheritance tax(a mere pitance), sale(asking/retail/auction/final/walkaway), historical(includes documented provenance from a well known individual/incidence), or bragging(priceless)?
* Estimates from afar suffer precision. Although the pics do help, a personal appraisal by an impartial Luger expert is recommended.
* The holsters, extra mag, & tool accessories add value. Their condition & markings are not described. Remaining original blue/hue left on both grip straps are unknown. The bore condition(s) are unspecified...tho to some collectors it doesn't matter & to others it is 10% of the value.
* Hopeless?? No - with a little more info as outlined above, one of us may hazard a guesstimate range to answer your questions.
* BTW - about $125-150 should get you a period correct mag & tool to complete that second rig. The correct eagle acceptance for these will be the same as the left most waffen mark on the receiver involved.
Respectfully,
WR

[JimS]

WR,

Thanks for the quick reply and good info. I've looked at the weapons again and come up with some of the extra info you requested.

On pistol S/N 726, the letter stamped on the front of the frame is "k".

On S/N 8002, the letter is a "c".

As for the magazines, the first one (with 726)is numbered 3539b and has a "plus" sign and the stick eagle with the number 63 below it.

The second magazine (with 8002) is numbered 311t and also has a "plus" sign followed by the stick eagle with an 83 below it.

As for the extra magazine, it has a wooden bottom plug and is stamped with the number "444" and has no other markings on it that I can see.

Now for the holsters, the first one has the following stamped on the back:

P.08 (1/4" in size)
bm 1/41 (same type-size)
a swastika in a circle with the following in a semi-circle below -- WaA788

The second holster is marked with:

a huge stamp of P.08 (about 5/8" high)

cdg
41

an eagle over an encircled swastika with WaA101 in a half-circle under the swastika.

The tool from the holster has a stick eagle with the number 866 below.

From checking over the weapons, all the visible serial numbers match and the grips are in good shape. From what I can ascertain, the weapons have sat in a lock-box since they came back after the war. I know for a fact that neither my father-in-law or his son (from whom I ultimately received them) ever fired them.

I took them to two local gun shops for a "quickie" appraisal and both places checked the bore and said that they were in excellent shape and looked like they had rarely been fired. Without any handy means to check them myself, I am assuming that the rifling is in good shape.

I don't like to "dry-fire" weapons any more than necessary, but I have cycled both guns and everything seems to function properly.

I'm hoping that this extra info can help with IDing the weapons. Valuation on my side is more for insurance purposes since they are not officially part of the estate (sssssh!)

Thanks again for any help you can provide.

Jim S

[JimS]

I've added a picture page for the holsters at:

http://jlstuht.freewebspace.com/lugers/Holsters.html

Hope these photos along with the extra info will help with evaluations for insurance purposes.

Thanks again for any help you can give,

Jim S

[RockinWR]

Jim S.,
* Preface all that follows with "IMHO". One humble plot point.
* Per Jan Still, TRL, the 1936 S/N Range is 5000f-4500p(No "j" block). #726k =35,726th made of 89,500. Assuming linear production, this example made the 146th day. May 25, 1936 give or take a month. Safest to say the 2nd Qtr. of 1936 given S/N range approximations, intermixed year date transitions, acceptance/repair lags, weekend/holidays, parts accel/delays, etc.
* Likewise, the 1938 S/N Range is 400b-4500n. #8002c =17,602nd made of 113,800. Assuming linear production, this example made the 57th day = Feb. 26, 1938 give or take a month. Safest to say the 1st Qtr. of 1938.
* Did not find a matching mag on the lists I have for either S/N reported.
* Correct my assumptions if errored, the mag tubes are both blue tubed, Al. based, & side pinned (Mauser Military Type II). If so, mag 3539b w/ sE/63 was made early 1938 & would best fit your 8002c pistol. The "plus" indicates this to be the second or spare mag. If commensurate to the 1936 pistol's condition, say about $75-$85. Insure for $100.
* Type 2, blue tube, Mag 311t would be awfully late for a sE/83 as this Inspector shows up in the 1938 "g-h" block, is most prevalent in the "i-n" block, and fades away in the "o-p" block. Dust/Rust can make the open top lobe of a "6" look like an "8". If the mag's "t" is an "i" and the acceptance is truely a sE/83, than made in the middle of 1938. If the "t" is right and the acceptance is truely sE/63; than, two choices - 1937 or 1939. The size of the sE/63 will determine which year. See/search a Forum post entitled "Mauser 42 Kreigsmarine Marked Luger" which ran in Jan., 2002. If the mag pictures, posted by Hugh @ the end of this thread are still viewable, please report whether the sE/63 is small, medium or large. If commensurate to the 1938 pistol's condition, say about $85-$95. Insure for $125.
* Unless the numbers are overly large, the wood based mag #444 is most likely a DWM P.08 mag. made around WWI. If minty, insure for $125.
* Nice holsters. The bml/41 PT.08 was made by Hans Romer in Neu-Ulm (Donau) and accepted by Inspector sE/788 in 1941. Seems to be missing a pull-up strap. Rate "good", value at $125-175 and insure @$200.
* The cdg/41 PT.08 was made by Auwaeter & Brubeck of Stutgart and accepted by Inspector sE/101 in 1941. Rate "VG", value at $175-225 and insure @$250.
* Never ran across a tool marked sE/866. Suggest you check this again. A sE/655 is a recognized, Mauser located, Inspector in the 1940-1941 period. Rate "??-VG-??", value at $45-55 and insure @ $75.
* Have to rate the 1936 @ about 75-80% due to the light pitting/blue loss. $700-800 roughly.
* The 1938 looks like a strong 90+% to 95% not withstanding unseen grip straps. I'm assuming both commensurate to the picture, no touch blue, and all numbers match. $850-950 roughly.
* So, round numbers, insure the 1936 for $1250 and the 1938 rig for $1500.
* A number of sources can be touched to bracket the values you're seeking. www.bluebookinc.com, www.simpsonltd.com, www.collectsfirearms.com, the auction sites, etc. Each has a risk/reward relationship to evaluate linked to the degree of arms length distance, credibility, experience, and time expended.
* So - what did the quickie appraisals say?? If you've not learned how to field strip these, the Forum's posts/Tech Info can help. Good for bore clean & to confirm Inside S/N's as also being matched. Should have the last two digits on the F/Pin, holdopen, trigger, and toggle pin. Grips may also be numbered inside. Sometime not with only a S/E acceptance or factory Inspectors letter/numeral.
* I trust you are not storing these in their holsters. Leather can hold moisture. The 1936 may have suffered this condition at some point in its history. I clean my P.08's with either Hoppes or Breakfree. If Long term storage I use RIG after cleaning.
* Trust this helps. Haven't bought a P.08 up in Wi. lately. Others should add/adjust the $'s for region/experience/etc. if warranted.
Respectfully,
WR <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" />

[ToggleTop]

Hello RockinWR,
I believe you will find there was definitely an "i" block of pistols in the 1936-S/42"s.

Regards,

[RockinWR]

TT,
* Oops... <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" /> ....meant (no "J" block) for the P.08 Mauser Militaries. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />
* Have to hire you as my proof reader next time.
* I'll do an edit to correct.
* Thanks for keeping the record straight.
WR

[ToggleTop]

Hello RockinWR,
I thought that was what you probably meant to type a "j" instead of an "i" but I wasn't sure.
Also, I meant to compliment you on the post you made for this gentleman. It took a lot of time, you did a much better job than I could have done! I can tell you love lugers too!

Thank You,

Morning rises above the crest.
A day ahead to make the best.
An evening is for a night of rest.
Before the Morning rises above the crest. (Nemo)

[JimS]

WR,

Somehow just saying thank you seems a poor response in comparison to the depth of detail you've offered me in my search for info on these weapons.

I'll check the 311t mag again -- when I wrote the numbers down, I listed 53,63,and 83; I wasn't sure just which it was. I'll use a stronger magnifying glass and report back.

I've looked at the tool again and it could be an "856" instead of an "866" but I'll get a stronger glass and look closer.

The unseen parts of the weapons (front/back straps) are in the same condition as that which is visible in the photos. And yes, the holsters were stored separately from the pistols which were wrapped in lintfree cloth and stored in a lock-box for the past 40/50 years.

I honestly don't think the weapons were taken out and viewed more than a few times over their lifespan as I was completely unaware of their existance until I found them when cleaning out the apartment of my deceased brother-in-law. I knew he had some handguns from his father who served in WW II, but had never seen them "in the flesh".

Thank you again for taking such a great amount of time to help out a newcomer - it is very much appreciated.

Jim S

[RockinWR]

Jim S.,
* My pleasure, 'tis fun, & thanks for sharing these with the Forum.
* "History in Steel". Each example confirms the work prior collectors have gleaned for us & sometimes tantilizes us with heretofore unknowns.
* Again, Welcome to the Luger Owners Club. That's LOC as in LOC & Load.
Bob
**The Devil is in the Details**