Swiss Pistol Competition Using Lugers?

SmithSwede · 03-28-2016, 07:17 PM

One of the things I find so interesting about the Swiss Lugers is that they were apparently appreciated by target shooters and marksmen. Hence you see things like Luger triggers being modified to have useful pulls, or rear sights being changed from a V to a U to improve the sight picture.

Seems like the 7.65 Luger cartridge was also popular, precisely because of its target accuracy.

And when the 210 was adopted, it was apparently only after people were satisfied that it would not be worse than the Luger in terms of target accuracy.

So what do we know about Swiss pistol competition or formal and semi-formal target shooting that would have used Lugers? What was the courses of fire?

I'm assuming that many or maybe all the targets were engaged at 50 meters.

How comparable was Luger pistol shooting to the CMP EIC Matches we hold in the United States shooting military service pistols?

If anyone knows the details, I'm curious.

hayhugh · 03-29-2016, 09:51 AM

I would think the distance for pistol would be closer to 9 or 10 meters.

John Sabato · 03-29-2016, 10:09 AM

The Swiss historically had pistol matches with their service pistols, in a similar manner as the USA. Here is a couple of photos of an award medals featuring a Luger from a pistol match circa 1961.

Vlim · 03-29-2016, 10:26 AM

Well, the organization of the Swiss army was, and is, kinda special. They have a compulsory military service, where the soldier gets a basic training first, and is then sent home with gun and ammunition. This way they keep a standing, well armed, army, without spending too much on additional resources. In order to keep the men trained, the army fully supports sports shooting, target practice, with the army guns and even supplied ammunition to do so.

Retired army personnel were allowed to purchase/keep their guns after service ended.

So yes, it is logical that the army ammunition was popular and that service guns were used in competitions. Pistol competition distances are 25 meters and 50 meters. The sights are set for 50. One of the reasons the SIG P210 is so good, is that it had to compete with the Swiss army luger, and that wasn't easy to accomplish. In fact, many Swiss old school shooters preferred their Lugers over the P210, and later pistols.

An added bonus of a well-armed and trained civilian population: Low crime rates in Switzerland.

mrerick · 03-29-2016, 10:51 AM

I did some web searching and found:

http://www.carmelgunclub.com/SWISS%20Matches.html

http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/

This site is like the "CMP" of Switzerland:

http://www.fst-ssv.ch/desktopdefault.aspx

Here is the site in Google translation to English:

https://translate.google.com/transla...-text=&act=url

They list 10m, 25m and 50m pistol competitions.

This is a 25m/50m typical competition description:

http://www.fst-ssv.ch/desktopdefault...241_read-5159/

From the site, it looks like they have a range of competition classes that would encompass everything from youth sports and "fun" adult competitions to some very challenging high level (Olympic grade) events...

Marc

Stucki · 03-31-2016, 12:59 PM

Pistol shooting in Switzerland was normally 50m with Luger and the SIG P210. In the 1970's with the P220 it changed to 25m. Today in the Swiss Armed Forces - beside combat shooting - it's 25m.

Alexander

hayhugh · 03-31-2016, 02:29 PM

I believe that National Match rules in the US call for a 50 Yard target but distance from shooter to target is 25 yards.(big bore)

derf0018 · 03-31-2016, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hayhugh

I believe that National Match rules in the US call for a 50 Yard target but distance from shooter to target is 25 yards.(big bore)

NRA rules for Bullseye is:

Slow fire = 50 yds

Timed and Rapid fire = 25 yds

Fred

Sergio Natali · 04-01-2016, 06:13 AM

Like in Switzerland also here, the distance for bull shooting at the range is 25 metres.

Mark1 · 04-01-2016, 10:20 PM

There's a Swiss guy at my local gun club and he confirms the Swiss use the ISSF format.
That is ; 10m for air pistols, 25m & 50m(55yds) for cartridge weapons.
He brought a SIG 210-6 with him when he emigrated and this pistol is in 9mm with a 7.65Luger conversion barrel.
This is interesting , the 9mm was compulsory for military matches but he changed his 210 to 7.65Luger for civilian matches because most Swiss shooters considered it more accurate.

03-28-2016, 07:17 PM	#1
SmithSwede User Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 1 Post	Swiss Pistol Competition Using Lugers? One of the things I find so interesting about the Swiss Lugers is that they were apparently appreciated by target shooters and marksmen. Hence you see things like Luger triggers being modified to have useful pulls, or rear sights being changed from a V to a U to improve the sight picture. Seems like the 7.65 Luger cartridge was also popular, precisely because of its target accuracy. And when the 210 was adopted, it was apparently only after people were satisfied that it would not be worse than the Luger in terms of target accuracy. So what do we know about Swiss pistol competition or formal and semi-formal target shooting that would have used Lugers? What was the courses of fire? I'm assuming that many or maybe all the targets were engaged at 50 meters. How comparable was Luger pistol shooting to the CMP EIC Matches we hold in the United States shooting military service pistols? If anyone knows the details, I'm curious.

03-29-2016, 10:09 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	The Swiss historically had pistol matches with their service pistols, in a similar manner as the USA. Here is a couple of photos of an award medals featuring a Luger from a pistol match circa 1961. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-29-2016, 10:51 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	I did some web searching and found: http://www.carmelgunclub.com/SWISS%20Matches.html http://www.swissrifles.com/shooting/ This site is like the "CMP" of Switzerland: http://www.fst-ssv.ch/desktopdefault.aspx Here is the site in Google translation to English: https://translate.google.com/transla...-text=&act=url They list 10m, 25m and 50m pistol competitions. This is a 25m/50m typical competition description: http://www.fst-ssv.ch/desktopdefault...241_read-5159/ From the site, it looks like they have a range of competition classes that would encompass everything from youth sports and "fun" adult competitions to some very challenging high level (Olympic grade) events... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-01-2016, 06:13 AM	#9
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Like in Switzerland also here, the distance for bull shooting at the range is 25 metres. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

03-29-2016, 09:51 AM	#2
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 856 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	I would think the distance for pistol would be closer to 9 or 10 meters.

03-29-2016, 10:26 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Well, the organization of the Swiss army was, and is, kinda special. They have a compulsory military service, where the soldier gets a basic training first, and is then sent home with gun and ammunition. This way they keep a standing, well armed, army, without spending too much on additional resources. In order to keep the men trained, the army fully supports sports shooting, target practice, with the army guns and even supplied ammunition to do so. Retired army personnel were allowed to purchase/keep their guns after service ended. So yes, it is logical that the army ammunition was popular and that service guns were used in competitions. Pistol competition distances are 25 meters and 50 meters. The sights are set for 50. One of the reasons the SIG P210 is so good, is that it had to compete with the Swiss army luger, and that wasn't easy to accomplish. In fact, many Swiss old school shooters preferred their Lugers over the P210, and later pistols. An added bonus of a well-armed and trained civilian population: Low crime rates in Switzerland.

03-31-2016, 12:59 PM	#6
Stucki User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 84 Thanks: 1 Thanked 130 Times in 34 Posts	Pistol shooting in Switzerland was normally 50m with Luger and the SIG P210. In the 1970's with the P220 it changed to 25m. Today in the Swiss Armed Forces - beside combat shooting - it's 25m. Alexander

03-31-2016, 02:29 PM	#7
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 896 Thanks: 856 Thanked 513 Times in 275 Posts	I believe that National Match rules in the US call for a 50 Yard target but distance from shooter to target is 25 yards.(big bore)

04-01-2016, 10:20 PM	#10
Mark1 User Join Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 72 Thanks: 332 Thanked 74 Times in 25 Posts	There's a Swiss guy at my local gun club and he confirms the Swiss use the ISSF format. That is ; 10m for air pistols, 25m & 50m(55yds) for cartridge weapons. He brought a SIG 210-6 with him when he emigrated and this pistol is in 9mm with a 7.65Luger conversion barrel. This is interesting , the 9mm was compulsory for military matches but he changed his 210 to 7.65Luger for civilian matches because most Swiss shooters considered it more accurate.