Dumb question--commercial Nazi guns

I have a Walther PP .22 which Marvin was kind enough to identify from its description and serial number as being a commercial model produced in WW2 Germany. I had always been told that the Nazi government practiced strict gun control and that pistols were sold only to the military or police. If so, what use would the military or police have for a .22 handgun? Could officers choose any type of pistol they wanted, and would there be any reason to select a .22?


I love shooting this pistol, but there is just something which feels better about using the Luger. I just wish I wasn't such a lousy shot with either gun.

[Matt]

Civilian ownership of pistols in the Third Reich was more common than what is believed. Civilians working in Nazi-occupied countries had a need for them for protection because of the hostilities against the Nazis.

A quote attributed to Hitler that says "This year (1935) will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future."

Although the Nazis did pass gun laws, I have heard this quote, often seen on T-shirts and bumper stickers, is a hoax. Any forum members know otherwise?

I recall reading somewhere that .22 was used to practice shooting cheaply. Quere, whether this could also have been an attempt to contravene proscriptions of military training imposed by the Treaty of Versailles.

[Marvin]

Mike,


Germany did pass a gun registration law and all pistols had to be registered with the Gestapo. Hunting rifles and shotguns were not required to be registered. During the Nazi era, any German citizen ( true German origin, and NO jews) could legaly purchase a handgun by obtaining a permit from their local Gestapo office. All they had to do was give a reason why they wanted the firearm. In the occupied countries it was the same process. A citizen of Czech, France, Poland, etc. that felt that their life may be in danger from Commies, partisans, etc. usually got this permit. The permit was good for one year and they had to pass a proficiency test. Other than the registration, the laws were not too bad in being able to get one. The biggest problem was after the war began, there was not a good selection in the sporting goods stores and if you wanted a pistol, it was pick what they had available or wait maybe a year or more for your pick. Hope this helps a little.


marvin

[Johnny Peppers]

If it came through normal channels you can bet that it has been proofed under the British Proof Act of 1955. The proofs would probably be on the right hand side slide, barrel, and frame.

[Kyrie]

Hi Aaron,


It was purchased for British military use, and hence was exempt from commercial English Proof Laws.


Hope this helps.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Dear Mike,


the gun on the picture is definitely no "commercial Nazi gun". As you can on the slide, it was made in "W.Germany" - western Germany. Between trigger and grips you can see the typical "Bundeswehr" (German Federal Armed Forces) proofmarks. The "BWB" is the "Bundesamt fuer Wehrtechnik und Beschaffung" in Koblenz, the Federal Armed Forces Department for proving and purchase of weapons, follower of the "Wehrmacht's" "Heereswaffenamt" - the BWB has a unique collection of guns (everything they ever tested and issued to German forces: pistols, rifles, tanks.....) in Koblenz, if you are ever in Germany, you have to visit it.


I believe you hold a "Pistole 21" in your hand - one of the quite few PPK's issued to flight crews of the western German Airforce. Usually they were issued in 7,65mm, but as well as with the "Pistole 1" (Bundeswehrs adoption of the "Pistole 38) with the "Pistole 21" training systems in .22 were issued. It looks like you have such a "Pistole 21" with a training system on it.


Regards,

Frank

[Kyrie]

Hi Frank,


I think we have a little confusion beginning :-(


Mike asked about WWII Walther pistols, the commercial sale of same, and what use the Third Reich military or police would have for a .22 pistol.


It was my reply that contained the photo of the post-war Walther PP in .22 Long Rifle. This pistol does indeed have the BWB marking of the German Materials Testing Agency of the German Ministry of Defense, and is one of the pistols acquired by England for issuance as the "L66A1". Like most L66A1's, it lacks any British marking (only repaired pistols would have the "crossed flags" British repair/inspection marking). This pistol is identifiable as being one of the British contract pieces by the "suncorite" finish, and the letter "P" stamped on the right, rear, of the slide indicating the pistol has the improved firing pin required by the British.


Entirely FWIW, Dieter Marschall's wonderful "Walther Pistols Models 1 Through P99" has been translated into English and is now available. The British contract Walther Model PP pistols in .22 LR is one of the many variations he covers.


I actually have something of a story to go along with this pistol. When I bought it I was told its story of German inspection and acceptance, but British purchase and issuance. The story seemed just a bit far fetched to me and I treated it with a grain of salt. A few years latter I was out shooting with a fellow who had served in the British army in Ulster, and shared with him the story I'd been given when I bought the pistol. To my surprise he confirmed the fact that Walther Model PP pistols had been issued, and remarked he'd been issued one himself. I handed him the pistol and he identified it as being a L66A1, and suddenly let loose an oath. He recognized the serial number - the pistol was the one he had been issued.


That was a wild experience. If nothing else it demonstrates the most unlikely things can and do sometimes happen, and stories that seem outlandish may well be true.


Best regards,


Kyrie

Dear Kyrie,


I have to beg your pardon for this slight misunderstanding. When I saw the pix with the "BWB" proof marks I was convinced to see the picture of a "Pistole 21". I didn't know that the original bearer confirmed the story to you.


What made me wonder was the information, that the British Army had her PPK's issued for service in Ulster proved by German authorities and that they didn't receive any "broad arrow" or comparable markings. Why didn't they mark them with British proof marks? Were they issued to the Royal Ulster Constabulary or were they issued to Special Forces of Her Majesties Army like most PPK's in British service? Can you give me some more informations about it?


cheers,

Frank

[Kyrie]

Hi Frank!


Not a problem at all, sir - misunderstandings will happen


I really don't have much more in the way of information. The British officer I was shooting with didn't bring up the subject of his service past his comments on the Model PP pistol, and I learned of his service only through my introduction to him. As he did not volunteer, I didn't question him, as I did not pry into his personal business. Marschell has a few paragraphs on this variation, but does not mention to which units the pistols were issued. My best guess is the purchase was via either NATO channels, or something arranged via the Old Boy Network. But I emphasize the word "guess." :-(


Best,


Kyrie

[Johnny Peppers]

Military weapons are indeed exempt from the British commercial proofs, unless the weapon is released by the military for commercial sale. Once released for commercial sale, the weapon came under the prevailing British Commercial Proof Act. Any military weapon that is exported from England will be proofed to comply with the law.

[Kyrie]

Respectfully, this is true only if the firearms in question are to be sold domestically in England. Firearms released from military service for foreign sale are treated the same as firearms that are transshipped though England to another end destination - they are exempt from English commercial proof.


Regards,


Kyrie

[Aaron]

I think I have the answer......The Walther in question was issued to MI5 agent 006 in .22 caliber, prior to switching to 7.65 when it was issued to 007. Seriously, it is a privilege to listen in on such august and lofty discussions. I greatly enjoy reading your learned opinions.

[Johnny Peppers]

Very, very respectfully, not true. Any weapon whether military or commercial that has been released to be sold on the commercial market or exported from England must comply with the British Commercial Proof Act. During WWII the US military weapons procured by England were exempt from the commercial proof law, but the day they were released by the British government they too were required to be proofed before sale. Witness the early M1 Rifles sent to England under the Lend-Lease agreement of 1941. Each and every one of these rifles which were declared surplus by the British government in the mid 50's will all bear the proof marks of the Proof Act of 1955. Most of the 1911A1 pistols that were sent to England were surplused in 1952 and will bear the proof marks of the Proof Act of 1925 which included NOT ENGLISH MAKE and RELEASED BRITISH GOVT.1952.

Also note all the British infantry rifles imported to the US which bear either the Birmingham Proof or London Proof House proofs.

Your source of information that indicates that surplus military weapons being sold and/or exported from England required no proofs is simply in error.

[Frank]

I think it was Johnny that once said that it said that we have seen both sides now and time to let this one slide into the archives.