Telltale Signs of a Refinished Luger

sheepherder · 01-11-2011, 10:26 AM

...or any pistol...

I viewed a pistol this last weekend that had been buffed and reblued, but the seller insisted it was original...

So for those that are unsure, here are some signs to look for...in a Luger...

These are two commercial Lugers, and the biggest tipoff is the smoothed edges and high gloss...Look at a specific area on each pistol, and compare them...

I look for buffing; a pistol that has been "dipped" (blued without buffing) is a bit harder to recognize...

Railsplitter · 01-11-2011, 11:13 AM

Excellent point and comparison photos. I agree. When those sharp edges loose the "crisp" look and pick up a radius it's not a good sign. To me, the entire pistol gets a "soft" look ... almost like it is starting to melt. Outstanding photos !!

Hugo Borchardt · 01-11-2011, 11:17 AM

Postino:

Thank-you! The difference between the sharp edges on the original finish and the rounded refinished edges are obvious. I have been relying on buffed out proofmarks and finish color/characteristics to tell the tale and was unaware of this much more obvious indicator.

Clark

calibrator · 01-11-2011, 12:05 PM

I think that most novices are MORE attracted to the mildly "Buffed" appearance as being more attractive. I bought my 1st Luger (now have 5, one is a complete Arty rig with loader) to use as a prop for an exotic glamour photo project I was involved in. Picked it over the other 3 because it just looked so much sexier. Of course I registered with this forum AFTER this purchase and realized I paid $200 more than I should've. I realize these were war-time tools spit out in quantity (Germans are noted by myself for atristically over-engineering and complicating everything), the milling and planing marks do give them a sort of unfinished look (which I now appreciate). There will always be a market for ALL the BUFFED shooters out there as long as the "Romance" of the Luger image exists for the next generation. Thanks ALL for this Great forum. Joe

Norme · 01-11-2011, 12:35 PM

Nice job, Rich. Your excellent photos should prove very helpful when questions of originality arise. Regards, Norm

Thor · 01-11-2011, 01:44 PM

Good points, I also see a LOT of salt blued DWM, and Erfurt Lugers with those edges. Look for these signs on those Lugers for refinish.
1. No paint in the safety marking
2. Blued in the magazine well and inside the forks of the receiver
3. The finish "feels" waxy when you rub your thumb across it.
4. Bluing looks thin.
5. The absence of polish cut and/or tool marks, DWM and Mausers were polished differently
6. A blued muzzle
7. RED paint in one of the thumb safety "dots" (two small dimples in the frame ears)
8. Look a the flat ares in the light, you can see the light reflect a bit wavy indicating the flat is no longer flat.
9. A blued firing pin or hold open on Erfurt or DWM Lugers
10. OVER polish to mirror under the bluing.
11. No wear on the sideplate island flat, or on the end of the frame side rails.
Any Luger that has a finish that is 100 years old will have been in a holster a few times, unless it has not been in war or preserved very carefully right off the assembly line. Sides of the muzzle barrel band will show wear, high edges on the recevier forks, etc
12. BLUED parts that should be strawed or fire blued.
13. Mis matched parts, or engraver pen marked parts, different height of letters, numbers, fonts on parts.
14. Grips that look out of place, non issue grips, ie Black Widow grips on a DWM.
15. Grips that have a fat edges or really bad checkering.
16. A hold open on a DWM or Erfurt should have a small area on top that you see fireblue to straw color, with the spring in the white and the larger block in the white.
17. An original rust blue will usually show some brown color in strong sunlight.
18. Straw parts on an original gun almost always will show whiter color on oneside of the trigger where the index finger has been drug across it, the bottom of the safety lever can look whiter than the top of it.
19. A original Luger should show some evidence of firing from the toggle stamping the rear of the frame by the lanyard loop area at the very back of the gun.
20. The area on the right side of the frame under the right frame rail should show some remainder of longitudinal tool marks (lines) if it is a Military model.
21. Inside of frame ears flats should have either circular tool marks or longintudinal tool marks that looks like lines at different angles, a MATTE look in these areas that has been salt blued really sticks out.

Any number of these things MIGHT be found in a Luger that is overbuffed and reworked. As a restorer, I try to mimic the original condition as best I can. The rounded edges shown by Postino IS the absolutely most graphic indicator of a amaturish reblue. The frame ear edges round over REALLY poke my eyes out!!

sheepherder · 01-11-2011, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thor

As a restorer, I try to mimic the original condition as best I can. The rounded edges shown by Postino IS the absolutely most graphic indicator of a amaturish reblue.

Outstanding list of points, Thor! (Right Click, Save!)

I should have been more specific, too - I was referring to amateurs, not true professionals such as yourself! Specifically, my local rebluer, who *insists* on buffing all his reblue jobs (removing tool marks).

There is one other area I have noticed, and that is the area inside the frame 'ears'. Some reblues I have seen have that area buffed, then blasted, to give a satiny look which contrasts with the polished flats. It looks nice, but is not [IMHO] original (except maybe on presentation pieces). I saved a pic somewhere, but can't find it right now...

SIGP2101 · 01-11-2011, 02:45 PM

Tutorial like this should be sticky.

Thor · 01-11-2011, 04:04 PM

Postino, here is a good example of the matte ear! Barf!

sheepherder · 01-11-2011, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clark Rickman

...I have been relying on buffed out proofmarks...to tell the tale...

Also a good indicator! I don't have two Lugers with original & buffed out proofs/text, but here's a pair of FN 1900's to compare...

aptech77 · 01-11-2011, 07:21 PM

Yes!!!! I was right! So, a shop by me has an outstanding 1915 DWM P08, s/n# 643ish. Seller told the shop he got it off a soldier in WWII,.....bla, bla, bla. I thinking, No way it made it two wars look that good. It's done well, but $1579....ummmmm, NO. So I wonld love to have a shooter looking this good, but have know idea what would be a fair price for a well done refinished pistol. All # matched except the mag. I would think $900-1k at most! Wish I could get you guys pics, but I'm sure they wouldn't like that. What say you?

HardBaller · 02-01-2011, 01:50 PM

Remember reading recently, for the life of me don't remember where but it was respected author (at least by me) that around 1/2 of all the Lugers for resale were refinished, some better, some worse. Not sure if the number is 100% accurate, but that is why this site is a God send and the members have never been shy in "helping" a fella out.

No problem as long as seller is telling the true story, have several shooters/refinished and "any Luger is good Luger" so to speak. But I do agree with that author in that there are LOTS of folks not telliing the skinny about the provenance, and probably know they are not imo.

One more point I would humbly add (okay, two). They are:

Handle as many models/variations as you can before you purchase. Reputable dealers with true orginal finishes can teach a LOT, but once you've seen a true pristine DMW, or Mauser for that matter, you'll appreciate the effort those folks put into their products. Crisp barrel bands, or the crisp edge of an untouched sideplate, deep and clear proofs, fire blue where fire blue was, or straw for that matter, unfinished muzzle ends, etc. are all a part of determining what a model is worth, and worth to you.

And, read, read, read some more before plunking down the bucks. This forum is one VERY authoritive source but the list is huge of reference books, some by forum members themselves.

Hope this helps, and THANKS for this OP. GREAT additional info.

sheepherder · 02-05-2011, 06:47 PM

Here's another example of buffed & blasted frame ears compared to my S/42 frame ears...

Original frame ears *should* have tool marks...

nukem556 · 02-05-2011, 06:55 PM

not always...look at some original Commercials and Swiss's the ear areas are often smoothly fininshed with no obvious tool marks

sheepherder · 02-05-2011, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nukem556

not always...look at some original Commercials...

My two original commercials have tool marks...I don't have a Swiss (never even seen one, except in pics)...

Should we amend it to say...Military production???

cirelaw · 08-20-2017, 07:40 PM

1906 Swiss Military~

alvin · 08-20-2017, 08:34 PM

Hard to tell ones are those in great metal shape, but regionally "enhanced". For example, the M1930 that I shoot has a polished grip strap. I guess there was some light rust dots there in the past, previous owner aggressively clean it using steel wool. If this grip strap is regionally reblued, it will be hard to tell due to other area is all original. Of course, I won't do that. But who can guarantee its future owner won't do that....

Checked a Schnellfeuer a few weeks ago. Its grip frame (registered) is all original, but its barrel has a digit professionally erased. Barrel and frame matches Form 4 s/n. If that digit was erased to "force matching", that's purely based on wrong knowledge -- the frame number (i.e. registered number) is only partial s/n in Mauser. The work was done very professionally though.

Regarding FN 1900, there were viewers asking "is this professionally restored".. being cautious is good, but that caution was applied on wrong object. I have never seen a single regular FN 1900 being professional refurbished. Its current market price does not support that yet.

ithacaartist · 08-21-2017, 12:37 AM

We have a GREAT list of tells established here, +1 on the sticky!

If I may, I'll add a few more.

1. The little pin that retains the central toggle axle was "in the white" on originals before salt bluing was commenced by Mauser production. The toggle joint's parts were rust blued while separate, then assembled with an unfinished pin.

2. Serial numbers stamped on the barrels normally display "halos"

3. Rust blued guns also have grip frames which should be "in the white" on the inside.

Puretexan · 08-21-2017, 08:11 PM

There are a lot of us that are not collectors. We will buy a really nice for sure reblued
luger to have a pretty shooter. They even tell us the royal blued, buffed to death is a
reblue and we will still pay too much for it. I have one that I love. Its buffed to death
but in reality, to me its perfect. I know the grand I paid was cheap, because if I bought
a hacked up perfect specimen, I would spend 6 to 7 hundred to have it reblued anyway.
So this way I save time and trouble getting someone to reblue it, and
I can see the finished product right now. The other way I'm just guessing.

cirelaw · 08-21-2017, 08:16 PM

Sounds like my first wife! However my third time is a charm!!

01-11-2011, 10:26 AM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Telltale Signs of a Refinished Luger ...or any pistol... I viewed a pistol this last weekend that had been buffed and reblued, but the seller insisted it was original... So for those that are unsure, here are some signs to look for...in a Luger... These are two commercial Lugers, and the biggest tipoff is the smoothed edges and high gloss...Look at a specific area on each pistol, and compare them... I look for buffing; a pistol that has been "dipped" (blued without buffing) is a bit harder to recognize... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter... Last edited by sheepherder; 01-11-2011 at 01:02 PM.

01-11-2011, 11:17 AM	#3
Hugo Borchardt User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 370 Thanks: 338 Thanked 131 Times in 47 Posts	Postino: Thank-you! The difference between the sharp edges on the original finish and the rounded refinished edges are obvious. I have been relying on buffed out proofmarks and finish color/characteristics to tell the tale and was unaware of this much more obvious indicator. Clark __________________ My militaria collection is dedicated to the memory of my Grandfather, Marine Gunnery Sergeant Dave Hill, Jr., wounded in action at The Assault of the Second Marine Division on Betio Island, Tarawa Atoll, 20-23 November, 1943. http://www.tarawa1943.com/pages/casualties%20tarawa.htm

01-11-2011, 01:44 PM	#6
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Good points, I also see a LOT of salt blued DWM, and Erfurt Lugers with those edges. Look for these signs on those Lugers for refinish. 1. No paint in the safety marking 2. Blued in the magazine well and inside the forks of the receiver 3. The finish "feels" waxy when you rub your thumb across it. 4. Bluing looks thin. 5. The absence of polish cut and/or tool marks, DWM and Mausers were polished differently 6. A blued muzzle 7. RED paint in one of the thumb safety "dots" (two small dimples in the frame ears) 8. Look a the flat ares in the light, you can see the light reflect a bit wavy indicating the flat is no longer flat. 9. A blued firing pin or hold open on Erfurt or DWM Lugers 10. OVER polish to mirror under the bluing. 11. No wear on the sideplate island flat, or on the end of the frame side rails. Any Luger that has a finish that is 100 years old will have been in a holster a few times, unless it has not been in war or preserved very carefully right off the assembly line. Sides of the muzzle barrel band will show wear, high edges on the recevier forks, etc 12. BLUED parts that should be strawed or fire blued. 13. Mis matched parts, or engraver pen marked parts, different height of letters, numbers, fonts on parts. 14. Grips that look out of place, non issue grips, ie Black Widow grips on a DWM. 15. Grips that have a fat edges or really bad checkering. 16. A hold open on a DWM or Erfurt should have a small area on top that you see fireblue to straw color, with the spring in the white and the larger block in the white. 17. An original rust blue will usually show some brown color in strong sunlight. 18. Straw parts on an original gun almost always will show whiter color on oneside of the trigger where the index finger has been drug across it, the bottom of the safety lever can look whiter than the top of it. 19. A original Luger should show some evidence of firing from the toggle stamping the rear of the frame by the lanyard loop area at the very back of the gun. 20. The area on the right side of the frame under the right frame rail should show some remainder of longitudinal tool marks (lines) if it is a Military model. 21. Inside of frame ears flats should have either circular tool marks or longintudinal tool marks that looks like lines at different angles, a MATTE look in these areas that has been salt blued really sticks out. Any number of these things MIGHT be found in a Luger that is overbuffed and reworked. As a restorer, I try to mimic the original condition as best I can. The rounded edges shown by Postino IS the absolutely most graphic indicator of a amaturish reblue. The frame ear edges round over REALLY poke my eyes out!! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

01-11-2011, 04:04 PM	#9
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Postino, here is a good example of the matte ear! Barf! __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

02-01-2011, 01:50 PM	#12
HardBaller User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 35 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Remember reading recently, for the life of me don't remember where but it was respected author (at least by me) that around 1/2 of all the Lugers for resale were refinished, some better, some worse. Not sure if the number is 100% accurate, but that is why this site is a God send and the members have never been shy in "helping" a fella out. No problem as long as seller is telling the true story, have several shooters/refinished and "any Luger is good Luger" so to speak. But I do agree with that author in that there are LOTS of folks not telliing the skinny about the provenance, and probably know they are not imo. One more point I would humbly add (okay, two). They are: Handle as many models/variations as you can before you purchase. Reputable dealers with true orginal finishes can teach a LOT, but once you've seen a true pristine DMW, or Mauser for that matter, you'll appreciate the effort those folks put into their products. Crisp barrel bands, or the crisp edge of an untouched sideplate, deep and clear proofs, fire blue where fire blue was, or straw for that matter, unfinished muzzle ends, etc. are all a part of determining what a model is worth, and worth to you. And, read, read, read some more before plunking down the bucks. This forum is one VERY authoritive source but the list is huge of reference books, some by forum members themselves. Hope this helps, and THANKS for this OP. GREAT additional info. __________________ Better to Die On Your Feet Than Live On Your Knees

01-11-2011, 11:13 AM	#2
Railsplitter User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler, AZ Posts: 112 Thanks: 0 Thanked 13 Times in 11 Posts	Excellent point and comparison photos. I agree. When those sharp edges loose the "crisp" look and pick up a radius it's not a good sign. To me, the entire pistol gets a "soft" look ... almost like it is starting to melt. Outstanding photos !!

01-11-2011, 12:05 PM	#4
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 242 Times in 92 Posts	I think that most novices are MORE attracted to the mildly "Buffed" appearance as being more attractive. I bought my 1st Luger (now have 5, one is a complete Arty rig with loader) to use as a prop for an exotic glamour photo project I was involved in. Picked it over the other 3 because it just looked so much sexier. Of course I registered with this forum AFTER this purchase and realized I paid $200 more than I should've. I realize these were war-time tools spit out in quantity (Germans are noted by myself for atristically over-engineering and complicating everything), the milling and planing marks do give them a sort of unfinished look (which I now appreciate). There will always be a market for ALL the BUFFED shooters out there as long as the "Romance" of the Luger image exists for the next generation. Thanks ALL for this Great forum. Joe

01-11-2011, 12:35 PM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,593 Times in 931 Posts	Nice job, Rich. Your excellent photos should prove very helpful when questions of originality arise. Regards, Norm

01-11-2011, 02:45 PM	#8
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Tutorial like this should be sticky.

01-11-2011, 07:21 PM	#11
aptech77 User Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Illinois Posts: 85 Thanks: 10 Thanked 7 Times in 6 Posts	Yes!!!! I was right! So, a shop by me has an outstanding 1915 DWM P08, s/n# 643ish. Seller told the shop he got it off a soldier in WWII,.....bla, bla, bla. I thinking, No way it made it two wars look that good. It's done well, but $1579....ummmmm, NO. So I wonld love to have a shooter looking this good, but have know idea what would be a fair price for a well done refinished pistol. All # matched except the mag. I would think $900-1k at most! Wish I could get you guys pics, but I'm sure they wouldn't like that. What say you?

02-05-2011, 06:47 PM	#13
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	Here's another example of buffed & blasted frame ears compared to my S/42 frame ears... Original frame ears *should* have tool marks... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

02-05-2011, 06:55 PM	#14
nukem556 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Irmo, SC Posts: 625 Thanks: 35 Thanked 168 Times in 107 Posts	not always...look at some original Commercials and Swiss's the ear areas are often smoothly fininshed with no obvious tool marks

08-20-2017, 07:40 PM	#16
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	1906 Swiss Military~ Attached Thumbnails

08-20-2017, 08:34 PM	#17
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	Hard to tell ones are those in great metal shape, but regionally "enhanced". For example, the M1930 that I shoot has a polished grip strap. I guess there was some light rust dots there in the past, previous owner aggressively clean it using steel wool. If this grip strap is regionally reblued, it will be hard to tell due to other area is all original. Of course, I won't do that. But who can guarantee its future owner won't do that.... Checked a Schnellfeuer a few weeks ago. Its grip frame (registered) is all original, but its barrel has a digit professionally erased. Barrel and frame matches Form 4 s/n. If that digit was erased to "force matching", that's purely based on wrong knowledge -- the frame number (i.e. registered number) is only partial s/n in Mauser. The work was done very professionally though. Regarding FN 1900, there were viewers asking "is this professionally restored".. being cautious is good, but that caution was applied on wrong object. I have never seen a single regular FN 1900 being professional refurbished. Its current market price does not support that yet.

08-21-2017, 12:37 AM	#18
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,288 Thanks: 7,035 Thanked 2,482 Times in 1,323 Posts	We have a GREAT list of tells established here, +1 on the sticky! If I may, I'll add a few more. 1. The little pin that retains the central toggle axle was "in the white" on originals before salt bluing was commenced by Mauser production. The toggle joint's parts were rust blued while separate, then assembled with an unfinished pin. 2. Serial numbers stamped on the barrels normally display "halos" 3. Rust blued guns also have grip frames which should be "in the white" on the inside. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-21-2017, 08:11 PM	#19
Puretexan User Join Date: May 2017 Location: Pearland Texas Posts: 176 Thanks: 11 Thanked 70 Times in 36 Posts	There are a lot of us that are not collectors. We will buy a really nice for sure reblued luger to have a pretty shooter. They even tell us the royal blued, buffed to death is a reblue and we will still pay too much for it. I have one that I love. Its buffed to death but in reality, to me its perfect. I know the grand I paid was cheap, because if I bought a hacked up perfect specimen, I would spend 6 to 7 hundred to have it reblued anyway. So this way I save time and trouble getting someone to reblue it, and I can see the finished product right now. The other way I'm just guessing.

08-21-2017, 08:16 PM	#20
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Sounds like my first wife! However my third time is a charm!!