Is it reblued?

[Bill Cullen]

Can anyone offer any tips on how to distinguish an original salt blued gun (circa 1940 or so) from a reblue?

My logic was to first examine crispness/readability of stampings and proofs and then move onto finish. For example, if the blue looks too bright, bordering on shiny, is it a reblue?. Should the color be more towards black than blue? Should the luster be more flat or dull (matte). Are there any "no brainers" too look for such as the sear bar, if its in the white or blued? I saw another thread that talked about whether the muzzle was blued? Would chipped grips near the safety lever have any factoring into the conclusion? (thinking why remove grips except for this reason) Are there any smaller parts that would show rounding of corners, etc, if reblued? Would the presence of "plum" colored smaller parts suggest original finish? What if the larger parts, such as the toggle have a plum tint?

I find this aspect (determining original finish from reblue) to be one of the more challenging for me and looking for some assistance.

Thanks in advance.

[John Sabato]

Bill, I would say that it is really a matter of the level of your experience in examining similar guns...

In my lifetime, I have examined hundreds of Lugers, and in the last five years I have had the privilege of examining literally thousands of highly detailed photographs of Lugers, so I am somewhat comfortable with knowing what I expect to see when I look at the "finish" on a particular model of a Luger... that is reinforced with having read virtually all of the published Luger references, and I still own many of them.

Crispness of the edges and markings can be a good indicator, but advanced collectors (of which I am not... I collect information since I couldn't possible afford all the Lugers I want) have some pet tests that they use to determine authenticity of finishes. One of these tests, if my memory serves me correctly, is conducted with Q-tips and a compound known as semichrome (SP?) which reveals the level of oxidation on the surface. One of the collectors (like Tom Armstrong) will hopefully chime in here and make a more detailed report.

If a gun has been "reblued" it is seldom that some metal finishing has not also taken place... A Luger that is shinier that similar contemporary models that left the factory at the same time is likely to have undergone post-factory buffing before being refinished.

Prior to the end of 1937, virtually all Lugers were rust-blued and only externally. The interiors of these Lugers (Like the Magazine well and moving part surfaces should be found "in the white" when the gun is disassembled.

An original "plum" colored extractor or ejector would "suggest" that the gun has not been refinished, but there is no guarantee that these parts if in good condition, were not removed before the refinish process just to make it look more authentic when completed.

"Thor" has said that the muzzle of most Lugers is not blued... and my experience supports his theory, but I can't document this condition to be true for all Lugers.

The Plum color seen on many guns, including Lugers is a result of incorrect temperatures being used during the bluing process or maybe even some contamination of the bluing solution.

Chipped grips, are no indication of original finish in my opinion, because it happens so easily during cleaning. It is just proof that the gun has been disassembled at some time and the person removing the grips probably used an expletive adjective when it happened.

Rounding of corners during the buffing process is an easy thing to do if you are not careful and have a light touch, and the proper holding tools... "Thor" is a master at metal finish restoration and hopefully he will also comment on this thread.

I hope this has been helpful.

Bill, your profile indicates that you are a new forum member (registered this year) but I seem to recall that you used to post on the "old" format of the Lugerforum. Am I correct? or has my ancient brain made a mistake?

[Thor]

John, I DO think that salt blued guns have a blued muzzle crown but rust blued guns DONT. If some of it is missing on salt blued Lugers it is from firing the weapon. I think the biggest tips for a reblued Luger is to look at the finish in the sunlight, especially rust blued (pre 1937 vintage) and look for browning under the bluing. Also look for wear on the high spots, the end of the front frame rails, the top of the sideplate, the sides of the muzzle end of the barrel, and the grip straps (this from handling) The gun will have been put in a holster so it will ahve wear there. Also if it says DWM or ERFURT on the toggle and the entire gun is BLACK or Dark black/ blue, including the safety lever, trigger, ejector, magazine release button and take down lever it NO LONGER has the factory finish (or at minimum the small parts have been blued over)
If it has plastic grips with BULLEYEs or targets on the sides and/or Xs on it, it is probably a Russian or East German Vopo (these will have small numbers in a starburst too uusually.
The best thing is to buy good books and go to lots of gun shows and view many many Lugers before you feel real comfortable in identifying original finishes. Looks also for RESTAMPED parts that have numbers that are jumbled up or too large or funny looking fonts. Good luck! It isn't easy to learn all this stuff, but it IS worth it. It takes time, research and patience!

[Bill Cullen]

John, I wasn't involved in the "old" forum. I didn't know the site existed until earlier this year.

With regard to my post, I guess I should have been a little more specific. At the last show a guy wanted to trade for some Sigs, he had a 1940, all matching except mag. The obvious things looked correct, all matching numbers except mag, stamps looked consistent, but the metal finish looked too good. It was a near shiny, near black color. There was a small amount of holster wear on side plate and muzzle, which even if it was reblued, would not seem to me a giveaway to determine if it had been reblued. Most of the others I've seen have more a dull luster, with more of a blue color. The sear bar was in the white, but the extractor and some other small pieces had a plum color. Bottom line was a passed on it based on his price, because it looked to good. I was just trying to see if there were some obvious things to look for to not get snookered.

Thor, your reply suggests switch over from rust to salt in 1937 timeframe? I thought it was earlier, in 1920's? Was the switch related to war-time production demands?

Thanks

[Edward Tinker]

And let me throw in a few cents;

I was at a friends house, he had 4 or 5 of the same year and model luger. He said, which is a reblue. I hem and hawed and picked one, and he said, "Wrong", none of them are.

My point is that besides obvious clues such as blued and it shouldn't be parts, bluing inside of the barrel, inside of the frame, bluing OVER pits and marks in the metal, that it is damn hard to figure out at times if it is a reblue or simply an excellent piece.

Anything over 95% I start to worry, checking it extra careful. Afterall, any gun over 50 years old is liable to have picked up some bangs, wear and tear.

Ed

[Thor]

According to Jan Still and his WEIMAR LUGERS & THIRD REICH LUGERS, Mauser RUST BLUED Lugers from the 1930 time frame in the "v" block until 1937 in the "t" block. Those Lugers will have strawed small parts the inside portions of the inside the frame top and magazine well polished. This interior polishing to the white steel stopped according to Still after the "n" block in 1936.
If you see a DWM, SIMSON, or ERFURT Luger with a Mauser BUMP on the frame it is a mismatch Luger and has been worked on or reassembled from parts of several guns. Another way to keep from getting taken on a reblue is to
"BUY THE BOOKS AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST !!!"

[Navy]

As my pal Thor sez..
BUY THE BOOKS AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST

The tuition at Luger U. can get steep. There ain't no Silver Bullet, one test that answers all in this bidnez...the semi-chrome test is just one part of examining for a re-finish, hell's bells, the really talented boosters know how to defeat a semi-c test by doing a light polish, a nice blue and then puttin' the piece in a steam cabinet for a day or two. They then get coarse cloth and oil, scrub the surface rust almost all off, degrease and repeat several times...when they are done, you do a semi-chrome on it and it looks fine, but it AIN'T.

You gotta have more than one trick up your sleve because, as O have said here before, every time you buy one of these trinkets, you are betting you know as much, if not more, than the guy who is selling it.

In my area, Navy and Krieghoffs, I seldom trust my eyes alone. I almost ALWAYS seek a second or third opinion, especially if the piece is gonna bust the $10K mark. And, generally speaking, that is not only a great help, it adds to the potential value of the gun, especially when done as expertly as was done for me by our own John D. when I bought a Kreig rig with 2 matched mags. he did a thorough, objective analysis of the piece, which can only add value to it when my heirs decide they need spending money.

Tom A.

You are either the diner or the dinner...

Tom A.

[Imperial Arms]

Look for PATINA (those bluish speckles of faint rust under the blue) - a pre-war pistol with rust blue or salt blue should show signs of patina no matter the care it may have received. Examine closely the gripstraps, and if possible, carefully remove the grips and look for rust/patina where the grips meet the frame.

Albert

[Vlim]

Hi,

To make things worse there are also the documented 'arsenal refinishes', where guns are both politically correct and show signs of refinishing and repair.

So depending on the environment the gun came from, it's not always recommended to discard a gun as a collector's piece because it shows signs of reworking/repair.

Knowlegde of techniques, timeframe, contracts, use, the paper and stamp trail, parts differences, number sequences are vital.

Forums like this one give you the opportunity to study a great deal of guns in detail.