What is this one worth

Parabellum08 · 07-13-2011, 09:28 AM

Hi,
I am new to the hobby and to this wonderful forum. Recently, I am offered this particular Luger from a friend, which, according to him has never been restored in any way. As I am not experienced Lugers, I would like to know some expert comments since these are such strong arguments. (And I have a feeling of the opposite) And also, there is this one part with DWM logo which is numbered 16. I am guessing this should have had the same last two digits of serial number 6710 like every other part. I would really appreciate if you could take a look at the photos and comment.
Best,
Ron

Parabellum08 · 07-13-2011, 09:30 AM

cont'd

Parabellum08 · 07-13-2011, 09:37 AM

more pictures

DavidJayUden · 07-13-2011, 09:50 AM

Welcome Ron. I can't argue with the "unrestored" claim as it seems pretty original. Am
I correct in assuming that it is in .30 cal. and not 9mm? Anyway, it is a nice example and one to start the collection off on. It is however a common commercial variety with a new part here and there so not particularly valuable.
dju

alanint · 07-13-2011, 10:04 AM

The gun has all original finish and is all matching, as far as can be told from the photos. The "16" on the inside of the rear toggle is an assembly number. The important number is the "10", on the outside, which matches the rest of the gun.

Parabellum08 · 07-13-2011, 10:11 AM

Hi David,
Many thanks for your kind and quick reply.
Actually, it's a 4", 9 mm.
Regards,
Ron

Norme · 07-13-2011, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

The gun has all original finish and is all matching, as far as can be told from the photos. The "16" on the inside of the rear toggle is an assembly number. The important number is the "10", on the outside, which matches the rest of the gun.

Hi Doug, The #16 is on the middle toggle, which should carry the last two digits of the serial number (see photo of a complete toggle train). Unfortunately this makes this nice gun a mismatch. Regards, Norm

alanint · 07-13-2011, 11:39 AM

My eyes are deceiving me. I could have sworn it was the end toggle.
Sorry!

Parabellum08 · 07-13-2011, 05:22 PM

Hi again, owner says that number on inside front toggle is indeed a 10, which with carefull examination with a lupe proves itself to be a misstamped 0 looking like 6. I would like to know whether this could be true, and anyone came across with such stamping error?
Best

Norme · 07-13-2011, 05:32 PM

Hi Ron, Ask for a clearer photo, also one of the left side of the front toggle (the breechblock). Regards, Norm

Dwight Gruber · 07-28-2011, 05:09 PM

This pistol is an Alphabet Commercial. The letter suffix is overstamped with a crown, obliterating what looks like an s or a t. There are a few examples known with this crown overstamp; the examples I have recorded are Police guns. The fact that it is 9mm means that it was rebarrelled, and the c/N on the barrel indicates that it was proofed by the civilian proof house in Berlin. The 9mm caliber with the civilian proof means that it was probably rebarrelled for use by the police, although there are no other police characteristics to confirm this.

--Dwight

mrerick · 07-28-2011, 06:19 PM

Dwight, would this re-work have been done by the factory? The s/n stamp on the barrel looks authentic DWM.

Marc

Dwight Gruber · 07-28-2011, 06:40 PM

Nope. DWM was forbidden to manufacture military arms, which is why the 3 3/4in., .30 cal. barrels. Rebarrelling would have to have been done specifically out of the factory. The typeface for the numbers was pretty common.

--Dwight

lugerholsterrepair · 07-28-2011, 06:51 PM

The finish on this pistol looks pretty rough for a commercial..Regardless of what your Friend says..I wouldn't pay a lot for it..depending on what you want of course.

lambermk · 07-31-2011, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Nope. DWM was forbidden to manufacture military arms, which is why the 3 3/4in., .30 cal. barrels. Rebarrelling would have to have been done specifically out of the factory. The typeface for the numbers was pretty common.

--Dwight

Now I am confused I was told the Luger that I have is a military issue, later given to the police. I have DWM 1913 w/ all matching numbers. And according to the "witness mark", I believe is what you call it, mine is perfect so therefore it wasn't rebarreled. Could you please help me in understanding.

Matthew..You have a pistol made in 1913 for the military. It was later issued to the Police and a sear safety added. Looks to be in good shape. Are there any number or letters on the grip straps?
__________________
Jerry Burney

lugerholsterrepair · 07-31-2011, 01:12 PM

Matthew..you are projecting what Dwight is explaining about a commercial pistol onto your Military. Apples and oranges.
Yours is a 4" Military and is in 9MM. Started out that way. It was then placed in a Police unit and remained 9MM.
Read the thread..it is very well explained.

lambermk · 07-31-2011, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Nope. DWM was forbidden to manufacture military arms, which is why the 3 3/4in., .30 cal. barrels. Rebarrelling would have to have been done specifically out of the factory. The typeface for the numbers was pretty common.

--Dwight

Thanks alot. I have been reading ALOT and am getting somewhat overwhelmed in trying to figure out just what I have and if it is of any significant value. I am presently unempoyed and need money BAD, so therefore I was thinking of selling the Luger. But the more I read the more I want to keep it, even though it belongs to my mother. She is living with us. So it isn't going anywhere. She doesn't like guns so it's mine anyway. Posession is 9/10ths of law right? There are some very interesting stories on these guns. And another thing I don't see many 1913's on here as opposed to the others, so I am thinking it might just be a treasured piece. And I definitely don't see any low serial numbers, and not many Lugers with all matching serial numbers. Everyone of my pieces that are required to have a serial # have it and they all match. Yet another reason not to sell it. That and the fact that it was my Grandpa's Luger. The bad thing is part of me wishes they didn't match cause I would love to fire it. I'm afraid I'll break something though.

Sorry to kidnap the thread, thanks again.

lugerholsterrepair · 07-31-2011, 03:17 PM

Matthew, Your pistol is in very nice condition. It has had the Police sear safety installed so that affects the value some little bit from a straight 1913 Military. You don't show under the barrel or the stock lug area..does it have a stock lug?

If this was your Grandfathers Luger he likely brought it home from the war? Once sold it will never return.

I understand about being unemployed..It's not pleasant.

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2011, 03:19 PM

1913's are less common than many, but not rare and you do find them with matching numbers, just do a search for 1913 on the forum.

Needing money is fine, but some guns you will sell and regret, trust me.

Ed

sheepherder · 07-31-2011, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambermk

And according to the "witness mark", I believe is what you call it, mine is perfect so therefore it wasn't rebarreled.

Any dummy can rebarrel a Luger and add the witness mark. The proof of that is that I've done it.

07-13-2011, 09:30 AM	#2
Parabellum08 User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	cont'd Attached Thumbnails

07-13-2011, 09:37 AM	#3
Parabellum08 User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	more pictures Attached Thumbnails

07-28-2011, 06:19 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Dwight, would this re-work have been done by the factory? The s/n stamp on the barrel looks authentic DWM. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

07-28-2011, 06:51 PM	#14
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	The finish on this pistol looks pretty rough for a commercial..Regardless of what your Friend says..I wouldn't pay a lot for it..depending on what you want of course. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-31-2011, 03:17 PM	#18
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Matthew, Your pistol is in very nice condition. It has had the Police sear safety installed so that affects the value some little bit from a straight 1913 Military. You don't show under the barrel or the stock lug area..does it have a stock lug? If this was your Grandfathers Luger he likely brought it home from the war? Once sold it will never return. I understand about being unemployed..It's not pleasant. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-13-2011, 09:28 AM	#1
Parabellum08 User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	What is this one worth Hi, I am new to the hobby and to this wonderful forum. Recently, I am offered this particular Luger from a friend, which, according to him has never been restored in any way. As I am not experienced Lugers, I would like to know some expert comments since these are such strong arguments. (And I have a feeling of the opposite) And also, there is this one part with DWM logo which is numbered 16. I am guessing this should have had the same last two digits of serial number 6710 like every other part. I would really appreciate if you could take a look at the photos and comment. Best, Ron Attached Thumbnails

07-13-2011, 09:50 AM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Welcome Ron. I can't argue with the "unrestored" claim as it seems pretty original. Am I correct in assuming that it is in .30 cal. and not 9mm? Anyway, it is a nice example and one to start the collection off on. It is however a common commercial variety with a new part here and there so not particularly valuable. dju

07-13-2011, 10:04 AM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The gun has all original finish and is all matching, as far as can be told from the photos. The "16" on the inside of the rear toggle is an assembly number. The important number is the "10", on the outside, which matches the rest of the gun.

07-13-2011, 10:11 AM	#6
Parabellum08 User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi David, Many thanks for your kind and quick reply. Actually, it's a 4", 9 mm. Regards, Ron

07-13-2011, 11:39 AM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	My eyes are deceiving me. I could have sworn it was the end toggle. Sorry!

07-13-2011, 05:22 PM	#9
Parabellum08 User Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hi again, owner says that number on inside front toggle is indeed a 10, which with carefull examination with a lupe proves itself to be a misstamped 0 looking like 6. I would like to know whether this could be true, and anyone came across with such stamping error? Best

07-13-2011, 05:32 PM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,415 Thanks: 225 Thanked 2,594 Times in 931 Posts	Hi Ron, Ask for a clearer photo, also one of the left side of the front toggle (the breechblock). Regards, Norm

07-28-2011, 05:09 PM	#11
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	This pistol is an Alphabet Commercial. The letter suffix is overstamped with a crown, obliterating what looks like an s or a t. There are a few examples known with this crown overstamp; the examples I have recorded are Police guns. The fact that it is 9mm means that it was rebarrelled, and the c/N on the barrel indicates that it was proofed by the civilian proof house in Berlin. The 9mm caliber with the civilian proof means that it was probably rebarrelled for use by the police, although there are no other police characteristics to confirm this. --Dwight

07-28-2011, 06:40 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Nope. DWM was forbidden to manufacture military arms, which is why the 3 3/4in., .30 cal. barrels. Rebarrelling would have to have been done specifically out of the factory. The typeface for the numbers was pretty common. --Dwight

07-31-2011, 01:12 PM	#16
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,763 Thanks: 4,866 Thanked 3,105 Times in 1,429 Posts	Matthew..you are projecting what Dwight is explaining about a commercial pistol onto your Military. Apples and oranges. Yours is a 4" Military and is in 9MM. Started out that way. It was then placed in a Police unit and remained 9MM. Read the thread..it is very well explained. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

07-31-2011, 03:19 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	1913's are less common than many, but not rare and you do find them with matching numbers, just do a search for 1913 on the forum. Needing money is fine, but some guns you will sell and regret, trust me. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV