BLACK WIDOW

[Flug Lehrer]

Why do you think BYF produced some lugers with the black bakelite parts and black finish?

[Edward Tinker]

On your left is General Information and here is a response that Thor wrote a while ago to that very question.

Ed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Q: What is a "Black Widow" Luger?
A: Typically a 41 or a 42 dated chamber Mauser, toggle coded "byf" with black plastic grips (on about 20% of them). This was simply a marketing tactic employed, and the phrase was coined by Ralph Shattuck (he tells me). It really worked. These guns have a black salt blued finish, black grips, and all blued (black color) small parts (trigger, safety lever and take down lever). Some of the 1940 vintage (a very few), and 41/42 Lugers had them also, but primiarly the "byf" with black grips are a "Black Widow". This was an American invention, and had no German basis at all! German collectors say "Huh?" sometimes, when you mention the term! Shown below is an example of a "Black Widow".

Thor</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

[Flug Lehrer]

Thanks Ed for the info. I already knew all of that. My question was, why would BYF produce all black lugers? Are there any theories? Like they were produced for the SS?

[kidvett]

What I heard about this is that because SS were dressed all in black....all black Lugers were for them.....but there is no actual basis to that `` theory ``....

I also know that some ( all?? ) SS troops were issued: Browning's P-35 pistols....

There are lots of unfounded theories about the WAFFEN SS....

kidvett

[Thor]

maybe we should have called them SWARTZ widows, purely an American Invention, the fact they were black, was because they had went to salt bluing in 1937, the fact SOME of the grips were black plastic was because there was a shortage of wood for the grips. The fact they were called BLACK WIDOWS was that there was NOT a shortage of American Creative nomenclature! A salesman idea....and it worked big time!!!

[Navy]

Flug, et al,

They were produced that way because Herr Speer saw that the old methods were counter-productive in an industral-based war. The P-38 was scheduled to become the standard sidearm, so obviously the remaining production of P-08s should be done as cheaply/quickly as posible. Hence the sale of the remaining stock to Portugual in 1943.

In my conversations with Speer in Heidelberg 1973-74, he stated several times that, prior to his assuming responsibility, the production of armaments was being accomplished on a "Guild" basis rather than an asembly-line basis. This was part of the political underpinnings of national socalism...every workshop has a piece of the action.

Thankfuly, it was not successful. A flawed concept, poorly implemented.
Tom A.

[G.T.]

Hi Tom! That would explain the quality that seem to run through the entire small weapons manufacture... apprentice, journeymen, master craftsmen... Great talent, wrong philosophy... till...later...GT

[Flug Lehrer]

Nope, Sorry Gentlemen, I disagree with all your fast answers. I believe a small quantity of these black lugers were produced specially for the SS and associated organizations. No way Mauser would retool just to produce a small percentage of black gripped lugers between 41 and 42 just to bum's rush them off to Portugal. That would have been far too costly and impractical. They would have used wood. Germans are notorious for their frugality. And Speer would have had no time or interest whatsoever for an insignificant amount of lugers.

[Navy]

Flug,
There was no retooling of any significance required, only a change in the finishing process. Grip production in plastic was required, of course but with the heart of the German petro-chemical industry not far up the Neckar in Mannheim, this would not present any significant problem that would off set the effiencies achieved by eliminating the virtual hand made wooden grips. Likewise, converting to a single finish instead of bluing and strawing simplifies assembly-line operations and reduces costs, both of which were vitally important to Germany as the tide began to turn in 1942.

As far as the Portuguese contract, it is widely reported that this contract was accomplished with remainder stock from Mauser that was matte finished (Phosphate finish), this was done at Portuguese government request and also reduces the cost to produce the pistol.

It is well documented that the SS received their small arms procurement support through the Heeres Waffen Amt.

Speer's position as Minister of Armaments gave him oversight over the totality of weapons production. He was a very detail-oriented individual-just read his books to get some appreciation of how deeply involved with every facet of the armaments production and distribution function. In fact, Speer was very knowledgable of small arms production and maintenance as his organization oversaw contracts with the SS who provided small arms assembly and repair in several concentration camps, Treblinka and Buchenwald, to name two.

If you choose to believe that the SS was having special lots of Lugers manufactured for their organization, yours is certainly a minority viewpoint. I would be curious as to what forms the basis for your theory.

Tom A.

[Edward Tinker]

Sorry Flug, we gave short answers because that is what we thought you were looking for;

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Why do you think BYF produced some lugers with the black bakelite parts and black finish?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">From what I understand the old thoughts on this was that they were made for SS or another organization, but, now most collectors believe that they were simply a change in how Lugers were manufactured and not a significant gun.

New theories are always good, and if you have factual basis, we are more than willing to listen

I too believe that the Germans design well, and think about what each aspect of the manufacturing plan is. But I have also seen many contradictory aspects in collecting Lugers, and I am starting to believe that with so many years, variations and manufacturers, that American collectors simply like to figure there is more to the story than there really is. During war, you make the gun as well as you can and sometimes there are oddities.

A good example of oddities that people in America believe or try very hard to match up is Rigs. (There is the interesting thread recently on matching rigs, which was well written). Guns and holsters might match in years, but why would they on purpose? When a gun was issued, they were issued a holster, why would they check to make sure the year was the same? They wouldnâ??t. it simply comes down that most rigs would have years close to the same year of holster, but many, many lugers from WW1 were still in service in WW2 and they very well could have had several holsters over the years. This is just an example that I have noticed how collectors try to match everything up, and it probably was only luck that a holster and a gun matched.

Ed

[Navy]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>Amen Ed!
In the Army, holsters were issued through the clothing depot and pistols through the HWA channel. Co-insidental dates would be exactly that, a function of random chance.

Having said that, as always with toggle tops, there are exceptions: many contract pieces have dated holsters that co-inside with the pistol date; likewise it is not uncommon, relatively speaking, to encounter Weimar Navy pieces with holsters serialed to the gun and have the same manufacturing date.

As a military logistician for 22 years, I can assure you that this was not done in the Army by design. In the Navy, it was done for a potentially wide variety of reasons, not the least of which was a "Sole source" contract to provide a simple solution to the fleet's problem of needing handguns.

Matched holsters to pistols provides no COMBAT POWER, so it would not be a consideration by the OKW general staff.

American collectors tend to get hung up on bogus theory and hype from those who are trying to squeeze a few extra bucks out of a deal. Lets work to educate the masses.

Tom A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

The SS didn"t wear black uniforms in 1942.
Lonnie

[Flug Lehrer]

Quote: (From what I understand the old thoughts on this was that they were made for SS or another organization, but, now most collectors believe that they were simply a change in how Lugers were manufactured and not a significant gun.)

I understand what you mean by significant here, but don't you guys think that being the last BYF luger produced and the only luger with black bakelite grips and mag base, also in such low numbers, that this alone would bare some significance?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us all.

[Navy]

Flug,
Yes it is significant for what it is, the last of the Mauser production Lugers of the III Reich era. The end user is largely irrelevent.

Tom A.

[Sgt Art]

Not really. The grips, at least to me, only indicate the trend towards faster and cheaper production methods. Just as plastic replaced wood grips in the U.S. on M1911-A1 pistols. The plastic or bakelite is much cheaper than fitting wood grips and more durable against water and oil. It was the standard for P-38's. Trying to tie black on black to the SS is a stretch that without some shipping records or some other support documentation is just a theory that's probably impossible to prove.

[Vlim]

What sort of material were the P38 grips made from?

Perhaps they were getting rid of their wood supply / suppliers, while tooling up for P38 production and since the P38 had bakelite grips, they figured they could produce P08 grips from the same material...

[Roadkill]

Tom A, check your private messages.

rk

[John Sabato]

Most WW2 wartime P-38 grips were made from bakelite that ranged from black to reddish brown. There were also some totally sheet metal grips manufactured and spot welded together...

[Vlim]

Hi,

So all in all, the switch from wood to bakelite just seems to be an obvious one: Easier, cheaper faster production and conforming production to other products. It's done all the time.

So no 'luger mythology' as far as I'm concearned.

[Flug Lehrer]

So, anybody want to buy a top condition ALL matching BYF 42 Black Widow rig?