Inherited Krieghoff Luger

marksf · 08-04-2013, 03:41 AM

My father recently passed and this was in his safe. I didn't even know he had one, but if anybody could tell me some history behind it and a rough idea of what it is worth I would really appreciate it.

I am guessing the magazine is different because the S/N do not match the rest of the pistol and it has a marking I cant quite figure out but it has a "2" below the marking.

Also, it seems to me that all the small pieces with the 2 number on it are 90 and the S/N of the gun is 590.

Thanks in advance

skeeter4206 · 08-04-2013, 04:56 AM

welcome to the forum. I am sure you are going to find that you have a very interesting luger now in your procession. I don't know a whole lot about Krieghoffs, so Im sure so others will fill you in a little better.

But as for the shape with a 2 under it is an eagle figure surmounting a numeral "2'. According to the book Im looking at it was something to do with the Luftwaffe contract. I attached a couple of pictures with the paragraph talking about the eagle over the numeral "2".

I am sure others are going to want to see some extra pictures. The top of the toggle, maybe the front of the trigger guard and barrel. They love seeing close ups of the markings, especially the one you are referring to.

As for the SN, yours being 590 and seeing the number 90 on the rest of the parts is normal. As for the magazine having a SN 8399, yeah its not matching to the gun. But from what I see in the pictures its definitely a nice piece. These particular lugers are usually on the high end when it comes to price. You can check out web sights like "simpsonsltd, legacy-collectibles and phoneixinvestmentarms to get an idea of what people are getting for them.

Enjoy your new luger and sorry to hear about your father.

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Edward Tinker · 08-04-2013, 09:28 AM

Lots of pictures. The suffix letter has me worried, as krieghoffs never had suffix letters...

I think it's a Mauser with a mismatched toggle on it, as the acceptance markings look like eagle 655 on the right...

skeeter4206 · 08-04-2013, 09:56 AM

Ed, I think you may be correct on that one. When you zoom in at the pictures, it looks to have the hump on the back side. Also it looks like next to the E/655 I think I see the Nazi style eagle over the swastika, and maybe one on the barrel. That's my bad on the initial call.

I'm curious about the holster? What ya'll think on that?

Edward Tinker · 08-04-2013, 10:06 AM

I think post war for sure, maybe Luger, maybe not, but very cool holster.

I like good description like above, but plenty of photos too as someone's Luger before turned out to be a Radom

If the toggle matches, then someone got lucky, but I'd like to see good pictures of it and various serial fonts...

mrerick · 08-04-2013, 10:50 AM

Hi, and welcome to the forum. I'm afraid we don't have good news for you...

Take better lit pictures in shaded (indirect) sunlight. Use a tripod, and the closeup setting of a digital camera. Don't use the camera in a Smart Phone. The white background is causing your camera to underexpose the Luger.

Your Luger has a Mauser manufactured and accepted receiver. The frame is Mauser also (it has the Mauser "hump" shape at the rear of the ears). Most of the rest of it is probably Mauser as well, but E/2 marked parts would be from a Krieghoff. Why no photo of the top of the receiver and toggle?

Clear pictures of all the external markings are needed to help much more.

If there is a Krieghoff toggle on this, it is a mismatch. A mismatch shooter doesn't have a fraction of the value that a matching Krieghoff has, even if it does have Krieghoff parts in it.

Marc

skeeter4206 · 08-04-2013, 11:08 AM

I was just reading in Kenyons book "Lugers at Random" The attached PDF in this thread noted a proof mark 46. If the toggle had a "42" on it, I think that would go with the rest. Code "42" were made from 1939 - 1940, so he is in that ballpark. SN range can be 1 to 5 digits with or without a letter. And there were up to 50,000 or more manufactured. He mentioned that the grips are plastic in the PDF and kenyons book mentioned that code "42" had either walnut or plastic grips.

Probably miss match toggle and magazine.

I'd load it up and shot the HELL out it! That's just me though.

Ben M. · 08-04-2013, 12:18 PM

does it make it a mauseoff luger then?

Edward Tinker · 08-04-2013, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skeeter4206

I was just reading in Kenyons book "Lugers at Random" The attached PDF in this thread noted a proof mark 46. If the toggle had a "42" on it, I think that would go with the rest. Code "42" were made from 1939 - 1940, so he is in that ballpark. SN range can be 1 to 5 digits with or without a letter. And there were up to 50,000 or more manufactured. He mentioned that the grips are plastic in the PDF and kenyons book mentioned that code "42" had either walnut or plastic grips.

Probably miss match toggle and magazine.

I'd load it up and shot the HELL out it! That's just me though.

I would imagine that the marking number is referring to this sites examples, number 46 is a Mauser proof.

marksf · 08-04-2013, 01:13 PM

With the camera I had I couldn't get any pictures of the marking to come out. I borrowed my fiance's camera whose camera is much, much better than mine and was able to get these.

Thanks again

skeeter4206 · 08-04-2013, 01:26 PM

Quote:

I would imagine that the marking number is referring to this sites examples, number 46 is a Mauser proof

I do agree that 46 is a Mauser proof mark. aint a code "42" which is stamped on the toggle manufactured by mauser? Reading up about mausers with that proof mark "46" were manufactured from 1939 - 1940. At least that's in the Kenyon book I have. It was printed in 1969, so it could be wrong. I don't know! I treading in new water even talking about these vintage lugers.

but as for the new pictures, it definitely has the mauser hump. But I don't see the first marking as for SN on the toggle in any of the pictures where a SN is usually stamped. Does H&K lugers stamp them differently?

mrerick · 08-04-2013, 02:11 PM

Hi Frank, belated condolence on losing your father.

Yes - much better pictures.

It is a Mauser Luger with the forward toggle replaced with a Krieghoff one.

One warning. The axle that holds the forward to rear toggle has a retention pin that fits in what looks like an empty hole on top of your toggle. This pin needs to be in there for safe operation.

The correct toggle for your Luger would have a "42" concealment code (which stood for Mauser).

The full serial number of your Luger includes the suffix letter on the front of the frame. It's "590e" from what I can see.

It is sometimes possible to find correct matching toggle parts. If this is the only mis-matched part, it would pay you to keep your eye open for one. The Luger looks to be in original finish. Don't see any E/2 marked parts...

These Mauser made Lugers are very high quality. If the toggle was properly fitted, and you have it checked out by an experienced Luger gunsmith (to get that axle retention pin back in, and look for any other issues) you'll have a very nice 9mm shooter Luger. Find a correct forward toggle, and the value will double.

BTW, the inside of the trigger plate should have the number "6" stamped in it.

Here, for reference, is a correct 1940 date 42 code Luger. My s/n ends in a "20". At the far right you can see the axle retention pin in place:

marksf · 08-04-2013, 02:45 PM

Thanks for the info everybody, and yes I believe the only mismatched parts are the magazine and the toggle.

Lastly, a BIG THANK YOU to mrerick because that pin is missing from the toggle and I never would have noticed that.

Any idea where to try and look for a matching toggle?

marksf · 08-04-2013, 03:13 PM

Also, any idea what it is worth as is versus if I find a Mauser toggle?

mrerick · 08-04-2013, 04:31 PM

A shooter is, at most, about $1000.

1.5x to 2x that for an all matching Mauser 1940 code 42 Luger.

Start with Tom Heller for the pin and put a WTB into this forum for the toggle.

One out of 100 of the Lugers from that period have the correct number. It is difficult to find one, but not impossible. Don't bother unless everything else is right.

And I'm sure you meant the "pin" not "pic" in the toggle. (fixed! - JS - Admn)The rest needs to be gone over also.

Marc

Curly1 · 08-05-2013, 12:15 AM

Welcome to the forum.

alvin · 08-05-2013, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Don't bother unless everything else is right.

Even domain expert could emphasize on all matching first, then gives a list of exceptions

"All matching except the rear sight assembly #1532, the follower which is a blank, and the floorplate #005. The firing pin has marks suggesting a Turkish contract replacement......"

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=358010016

That's language skill. I like the ad.

alanint · 08-05-2013, 11:25 AM

Once and if you find a matching toggle, you can more than make up the cost by selling off the much rarer Krieghoff toggle.

skeeter4206 · 08-10-2013, 04:56 AM

If you ever do wanna sell your H&K toggle link, check out what this one is going for.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Lug...item3a83acbaa9

08-04-2013, 09:28 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	Lots of pictures. The suffix letter has me worried, as krieghoffs never had suffix letters... I think it's a Mauser with a mismatched toggle on it, as the acceptance markings look like eagle 655 on the right... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-04-2013, 10:06 AM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,930 Thanks: 2,030 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	I think post war for sure, maybe Luger, maybe not, but very cool holster. I like good description like above, but plenty of photos too as someone's Luger before turned out to be a Radom If the toggle matches, then someone got lucky, but I'd like to see good pictures of it and various serial fonts... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-04-2013, 10:50 AM	#6
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi, and welcome to the forum. I'm afraid we don't have good news for you... Take better lit pictures in shaded (indirect) sunlight. Use a tripod, and the closeup setting of a digital camera. Don't use the camera in a Smart Phone. The white background is causing your camera to underexpose the Luger. Your Luger has a Mauser manufactured and accepted receiver. The frame is Mauser also (it has the Mauser "hump" shape at the rear of the ears). Most of the rest of it is probably Mauser as well, but E/2 marked parts would be from a Krieghoff. Why no photo of the top of the receiver and toggle? Clear pictures of all the external markings are needed to help much more. If there is a Krieghoff toggle on this, it is a mismatch. A mismatch shooter doesn't have a fraction of the value that a matching Krieghoff has, even if it does have Krieghoff parts in it. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-04-2013, 01:13 PM	#10
marksf New User Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	With the camera I had I couldn't get any pictures of the marking to come out. I borrowed my fiance's camera whose camera is much, much better than mine and was able to get these. Thanks again Attached Thumbnails

08-04-2013, 02:11 PM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi Frank, belated condolence on losing your father. Yes - much better pictures. It is a Mauser Luger with the forward toggle replaced with a Krieghoff one. One warning. The axle that holds the forward to rear toggle has a retention pin that fits in what looks like an empty hole on top of your toggle. This pin needs to be in there for safe operation. The correct toggle for your Luger would have a "42" concealment code (which stood for Mauser). The full serial number of your Luger includes the suffix letter on the front of the frame. It's "590e" from what I can see. It is sometimes possible to find correct matching toggle parts. If this is the only mis-matched part, it would pay you to keep your eye open for one. The Luger looks to be in original finish. Don't see any E/2 marked parts... These Mauser made Lugers are very high quality. If the toggle was properly fitted, and you have it checked out by an experienced Luger gunsmith (to get that axle retention pin back in, and look for any other issues) you'll have a very nice 9mm shooter Luger. Find a correct forward toggle, and the value will double. BTW, the inside of the trigger plate should have the number "6" stamped in it. Here, for reference, is a correct 1940 date 42 code Luger. My s/n ends in a "20". At the far right you can see the axle retention pin in place: Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-04-2013, 04:56 AM	#2
skeeter4206 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 448 Thanks: 52 Thanked 88 Times in 49 Posts	welcome to the forum. I am sure you are going to find that you have a very interesting luger now in your procession. I don't know a whole lot about Krieghoffs, so Im sure so others will fill you in a little better. But as for the shape with a 2 under it is an eagle figure surmounting a numeral "2'. According to the book Im looking at it was something to do with the Luftwaffe contract. I attached a couple of pictures with the paragraph talking about the eagle over the numeral "2". I am sure others are going to want to see some extra pictures. The top of the toggle, maybe the front of the trigger guard and barrel. They love seeing close ups of the markings, especially the one you are referring to. As for the SN, yours being 590 and seeing the number 90 on the rest of the parts is normal. As for the magazine having a SN 8399, yeah its not matching to the gun. But from what I see in the pictures its definitely a nice piece. These particular lugers are usually on the high end when it comes to price. You can check out web sights like "simpsonsltd, legacy-collectibles and phoneixinvestmentarms to get an idea of what people are getting for them. Enjoy your new luger and sorry to hear about your father.

08-04-2013, 09:56 AM	#4
skeeter4206 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 448 Thanks: 52 Thanked 88 Times in 49 Posts	Ed, I think you may be correct on that one. When you zoom in at the pictures, it looks to have the hump on the back side. Also it looks like next to the E/655 I think I see the Nazi style eagle over the swastika, and maybe one on the barrel. That's my bad on the initial call. I'm curious about the holster? What ya'll think on that?

08-04-2013, 11:08 AM	#7
skeeter4206 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 448 Thanks: 52 Thanked 88 Times in 49 Posts	I was just reading in Kenyons book "Lugers at Random" The attached PDF in this thread noted a proof mark 46. If the toggle had a "42" on it, I think that would go with the rest. Code "42" were made from 1939 - 1940, so he is in that ballpark. SN range can be 1 to 5 digits with or without a letter. And there were up to 50,000 or more manufactured. He mentioned that the grips are plastic in the PDF and kenyons book mentioned that code "42" had either walnut or plastic grips. Probably miss match toggle and magazine. I'd load it up and shot the HELL out it! That's just me though.

08-04-2013, 12:18 PM	#8
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 488 Thanks: 90 Thanked 123 Times in 83 Posts	does it make it a mauseoff luger then?

08-04-2013, 02:45 PM	#13
marksf New User Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the info everybody, and yes I believe the only mismatched parts are the magazine and the toggle. Lastly, a BIG THANK YOU to mrerick because that pin is missing from the toggle and I never would have noticed that. Any idea where to try and look for a matching toggle?

08-04-2013, 03:13 PM	#14
marksf New User Join Date: Aug 2013 Posts: 4 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Also, any idea what it is worth as is versus if I find a Mauser toggle?

08-04-2013, 04:31 PM	#15
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	A shooter is, at most, about $1000. 1.5x to 2x that for an all matching Mauser 1940 code 42 Luger. Start with Tom Heller for the pin and put a WTB into this forum for the toggle. One out of 100 of the Lugers from that period have the correct number. It is difficult to find one, but not impossible. Don't bother unless everything else is right. And I'm sure you meant the "pin" not "pic" in the toggle. (fixed! - JS - Admn)The rest needs to be gone over also. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-05-2013, 12:15 AM	#16
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 117 Thanked 714 Times in 371 Posts	Welcome to the forum. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

08-05-2013, 11:25 AM	#18
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Once and if you find a matching toggle, you can more than make up the cost by selling off the much rarer Krieghoff toggle.

08-10-2013, 04:56 AM	#19
skeeter4206 User Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Augusta, GA Posts: 448 Thanks: 52 Thanked 88 Times in 49 Posts	If you ever do wanna sell your H&K toggle link, check out what this one is going for. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Lug...item3a83acbaa9