Artillery Luger Trigger Problem

[trias10]

I purchased my first artillery luger from my local gun store about 2 weeks ago. I have been going there for years, and they occassionally get some really nice collector's pieces such as lugers and p-38s, so it was a bit of a spur of the moment type purchase, as I knew very little about lugers, but had always wanted to get one (mainly to shoot it, but also nice to have the collector's status as well).

I was really excited, but as I didn't know much about Lugers, I didn't have much time to research. The artillery luger is a 1917 DWM, with matching parts and original WW1 magazine (with the wooden bottom), although I can't recall if the magazine is also matching. The bore is excellent (almost near-mint) condition as far as I can tell (i don't know lugers too well, but I'm pretty familiar with guns in general, and this bore is nicer than even my brand new glock or sig bores). The rest of the gun is in fairly good condition. I'd say 92% blue, with some pitting on the barrel near the rear sight, and some light barrel wear (from being in a holster).

Once I brought the gun home, I took it apart and cleaned it using Break Free. I also noticed that the bolt itself (the one that tapers off into the firing pin) has the number 83 on it whereas all other parts on the gun have the number 45. I'm guessing I just got screwed on the sale?

Regardless, my main goal was to have a reliable artillery luger to shoot at the range. My first time shooting it was this saturday. I started off with 25 rounds of MagTech 9mm. The gun performed just fine, no jams or misfires. I then packed it away, went out for lunch, then came back to the range. This time I decided to shoot 150 rounds of PMC 9mm. The gun was still warm from my first 25 rounds, but now it fired incredibly poorly. It jammed a lot, almost always on the last 1 or 2 rounds fed in from the magazine. However, the really scary thing that happened was pulling the trigger with a round in the chamber would not fire the round. It was ridiculously strange, I would keep pulling the trigger over and over and nothing would happen. I'd wait a little bit, and then pull the trigger again and it would fire. This went on until I finished all 3 box of ammo.

The gun was extremely accurate and fun to shoot when it would actually work. I'm thinking I either over-oiled the gun on my first cleaning, or it was switching to the PMC ammo which caused the gun to malfunction so much. I'm mainly worried about the trigger pull not firing the gun as this is a pretty big problem in my book, and I'm curious if there is a way to fix it.

Sorry I've only taken one photo of the gun. I will take more detailed photos and post them later. The price of the gun was $2600.

Thanks in advance for any help or comments.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Daniel, First..congratulations on joining the Forum and your new Artillery.

The mismatched bolt is not a good sign or all that good for collector value. Any mismatched part is looked on as a detriment to a true collector Artillery.
However, as you intend to shoot this pistol, it will not be the only mismatched part soon enough. My shooter Artillery has had parts fly off on regular occasions.
Regardless..your pistol seems to be ammunition sensitive. If it was working faultlessly on MagTech..I would try again and see if it continues to do so. This simple test would tell you if the pistol changed in the middle of your shooting session or if it was the ammunition change.
Many members here have good luck with Walmart white box Winchester bulk ammo. It works well for me.
Another thing might be to find a MecGar mag to shoot with. The spring in your original wood bottom mag may be weak. Besides, if it matches the pistol you sure as heck don't want to break the wood bottom. Even if it does not match, you don't want to un necessarily risk breaking an original mag.
Untill you test your ammo, I wouldn't start monkeying with the mechanics of the pistol..Yet.

In the meantime, I would dismantle the pistol and look very closely at the hold open, sear, underside of the bolt, fireing pin and spring, trigger & spring..basically all the fireing parts. Look for wear,fractures, cracks, spalling..anything that might hamper operations. I bought a pistol once where a previous owner had replaced the trigger spring with a ball point pen spring. Worked for awhile!

You can also test fire the pistol once or twice without ammunition..a snap cap is always handy, to see if it functions normally at the bench.
From your description, it might be some grit or carbon build up.

If you repeatedly pulled the trigger and the pistol eventually functioned, the striker let loose and it tells you the pistol was cocking. Just that the sear was not releasing the fireing pin.

You may want to slip out the sear bar and clean underneath it. Might be a build up of crud there. Most people who clean Lugers fail to remove this important part and give it the attention it deserves.

It is simple to do, There is a flat spring that holds it in. Take a wood or plastic stick and insert it into the curved end of the flat spring. Lift it slightly and push towards the sear bar. It will slide over the bar and out of it's recess. Then the bar is free to come unhinged from it's post in the frame and can be removed.


Good Luck!

Jerry Burney

[Ron Wood]

If the gun will eventually fire after repeated trigger pulls, I suspect that it has a "sluggish" disconnector on the sear (the little plunger on the front of the sear bar). When the toggle closes, stripping off the next round from the magazine and cocking the firing pin, as the receiver moves forward the disconnector hits the trigger transfer lever inside the side plate because you haven't had time to release the trigger. When you release the trigger for the next shot and the transfer lever moves out of the way, the disconnector is supposed to extend from the front of the sear bar so that it may again be depressed by the transfer lever to move the sear and release the firing pin. If it doesn't extend, there is nothing for the transfer lever to press on and it won't fire until the disconnector finally makes up its mind to come out and play.

Soak the disconnector with a solvent (WD-40 or something like that) and keep depressing it until the gunk is cleared and it works freely. It doesn't hurt to clean up the crud under the sear bar as well, as Jerry suggested.

[trias10]

Thank you very much for the replies thus far. I will try my best to take out and clean the sear and disconnector later tonight.

Also, I made a mistake in my terminology, it is not the bolt that has the mismatched number, it is the firing pin.

From the sounds of it, would you say I overpaid for this gun? I just keep thinking if I could have acquired a much better quality artillery luger for the same price (or even less) off an auction site light gunbroker. This was a pretty large amount of money for a firearm, and I'd hate to know that I overpaid by something like $1000...

[Ron Wood]

I think you did pretty well. I do not worry about mis-matched firing pins, grips or magazines. They often got broken/replaced in use. There are a lot of folks that insist that a Luger is not as collectable, some even going so far as declaring them "only shooters", if these parts do not match but I am not that much of a purist.

[lugerholsterrepair]

Daniel, Ron is correct of course. He has given a good diagnosis.The plunger is likely your problem.

This is the one and only part assembly on a Luger I have never taken apart. The pin that holds it in is extremely small. One would have to find the exact small drill rod to drift it out and I have never had an occasion or need to do so.

Personally I don't use WD40 as a solvent though. If I were wanting to flush out this area I would use an oderless paint thinner. It's what I use to clean my pistols after a range session. Then blow it off with compressed air. If WD40 is captured in the plunger spring it could harden up over time. You see.. it evaporates and leaves behind sticky residue. I guess it would be OK if you are sure to blow it out thouroughly. That's hard to do with this plunger.
Then when it is clean, a small amount of your favorite gun oil should do the trick.
It should pop in and out with ease.

The fireing pin! I wouldn't worry too much about this oft broken part.

Jerry Burney

[Vlim]

The firing pin! I wouldn't worry too much about this oft broken part.

Well said. And it's important to clean out the hole the firing pin rides in now and again. Crud buildup inside will also cause misfires over time.

You'd be amazed about the amount of dirt residing in the front toggle innards...

ps: Get a stock and a (repro) holster rig as soon as you can. Shooting these guns with all bells and whistles attached is much more fun!

[alvin]

[**irrelevant question deleted... never mind **]

Mismatched firing pin could be a good reason to bargain down some $$.... maybe not much. You may request the seller to give you a pin with same number, or compensate you with something so you can find a pin yourself. If the gun was bought as all-matching, I think that's not unfair. You've already fired this gun, that may put you in an awkward position.

[alvin]

Originally posted by G. van Vlimmeren
ps: Get a stock and a (repro) holster rig as soon as you can. Shooting these guns with all bells and whistles attached is much more fun!

Vlim -- There is a trap.

Page 9 of "Holsters and Shoulder Stocks of the World" (Anthony Vanderlinden, 2005) has a disclaimer:

It is a violation of the NFA to assemble a "short barreled rifle"..... Certain firearms classified as "Curios or Relics", most notably Luger and Mauser "Broomhandle" pistols have been removed from the NFA with respect to shoulder-stocks, but this exception applies only to certain ORIGINAL (i.e., not modern reproduction) shoulder-stocks.

So, if attached, that stock must be made of "DWM wood". Tricky.

[trias10]

Thank you so much for the cleaning tips!

Last night, I disassembled the sear and extractor, which I have never done before because I did not know how, or that they even came apart. I watched the excellent videos on YouTube (I think posted from someone on this forum) that show how to do this.

Ron and Jerry, you guys were right! I had so much dirt and gunk in the extractor and sear that it looked like someone packed a wad of chewing tobacco in there. I spent about an hour meticulously cleaning it out. I also took apart the side plate as per the video instructions and cleaned that out.

I took a good look at the disconnector and it does not seem to be the problem, as it was relatively clean and silver looking, and seemed to depress and spring out with no problem. I tried to remove it, but like Jerry said, that pin is ultra small, and I couldn't get it to come out, so I decided not to mess with it.

I'm guessing all the grim in the sear and extractor were responsible for the misfires. I will be taking the gun to the range today after work to see how it performs now.

Hopefully, I can find a nice repro rig with original DWM stock to try out. Thanks again for all the tips!

[Ron Wood]

For the stock the operative word is "artillery" not DWM. To be legal it has to be a stock made for the artillery Luger, either original or repro. You may not attach a Navy or Carbine stock. The quote from Vanderlinden is not accurate, as reproduction artillery stocks that are of the same configuration and dimensions as an original are perfectly legal.

[alvin]

Ron -- Thanks a lot! Keep learning from you from all aspects!

[Lugerdoc]

Alvin, I checked my stock and unfortunately no original #45 DWM FP available. You may want to consider installing an unnumbered RELIEVED FP @$25, if you plan to shoot this luger a lot, to protect your matching breech block from damage. That would be a lot harder part to match up, than your FP. I would agree that $2500 is about $1000 to high for a mismatched Artillery, but if you can find the matching FP, you're back in the right range. TH

[Ron Wood]

Holy cow! A $1000 decrease in price for a firing pin?!! I know you are in the business and know far better than me what the market is, but I have a hard time accepting that a mismatched firing pin devalues a Luger by 40%.

[lugerholsterrepair]

I have to agree with Ron...$1500 is what I have seen completely mismatched top to bottom beater shooter Artilleries go for. Daniel has a very nice piece, not even a chip out of the grip.
Not only that but... he will be ordering more parts from tom since he intends to shoot it.
He said the bore was mint...A very nice pistol so I couldn't see how a fireing pin would drop it to 1500.
Tom is right about one thing though...Daniel should replace his unrelieved fireing pin for shooting just to be sure....and the grips, extractor etc.

Jerry Burney

[alvin]

Finding a firing pin with that number could be important. The pin itself is probably not very expansive, but it takes some effort to find it.... 1 in 100 and also need to compare the "font" carefully. I assume a $2500 Luger should be all-matching, unless it's a very rare one.

[wlyon]

Ron is correct on the reprodution stock. It only needs to be attached to the correct firearm that it was made for. I can't see where a mismatched firing pin would reduce the price much at all. It is one of the parts that doesn't bother me to be non matching. If it is, fine, if not and the firearm is in otherwise good matching condition,go for it. I feel collectors have gone to far on what to expect. These firearms are old and have been used, Things happen to old parts. Looks like a good artillery. If you feel you paid to much, check again in a couple years. Welcome to the forum and the addictive luger world. Bill

[Ron Wood]

Bill and I are pretty much of the same opinion. I will not value a nice Luger up or down very much, if at all, for a matched or unmatched firing pin, grips or magazine. It is nice to have those things matching, but I am looking at the overall condition and originality of the gun. (I am also not real hard-over on the bore condtion...dark is OK, heavily pitted is not)

So if I ever get around to selling some of my stuff, and someone happens to find one that doesn't have a matching firing pin (I don't even know if I have one) and tries to haggle my price down a ridiculous amount, I will politely tell them to be careful not to let the door hit them on the backside on their way out.

[alvin]

[**** Irrelevant question deleted.... never mind ****]

[trias10]

I'm very curious about this concept of the relieved firing pin. How does it differ from a standard luger firing pin? Why is it important to have for a shooter? Is there any place where I could buy one?