Interesting Markings on 1913 DWM

Luke · 08-09-2002, 04:19 PM

Noticed a small Crown/RC on the front of the trigger guard. According to Jones' "Luger Variations," that means the gun was repaired or refinished by DWM.

On the barrel above the serial number is the following:

Bo.25

where the small "o" is an umlaut version which I can't reproduce here.

Are these two connected? Were these barrels installed originally on DWM Lugers or used as replacements by DWM during a rework operation?

Thanks,
Luke

Thor · 08-09-2002, 04:58 PM

Also......WOL proofmark book says there are two types of crown RC proffs, one from DWM and one from Erfurt. The fonts appear different from each maker. Don't know the answer to the last question or have anthing else to add Luke! It is said to be repair and reissue proof on both Erfurt and DWM Lugers.

Luke · 08-09-2002, 05:09 PM

Thor,

Jones' book also shows the Erfurt and DWM markings. This one is definitely the DWM version.

Luke

Garfield · 08-09-2002, 05:26 PM

Luke:

Regarding the BO.25 stamp found on the bottom of the barrel on your DWM:
"Bohler Stahl bottom barrel proof found on 1913 and 1914 DWM and Erfurts used to indicate that the barrel was made of Bohler steel. This was a special hardening process of the barrel to be used with experimental steel bullets. This proof is usually found with two numerals folowing the proof which indicate the degree of hardness of the steel. In 1913 models the lowest number recorded is BO.23 and the highest number recorded is BO.26. These numbers are found in both the a and b range. The lowest number recorded in the 1914 model is BO.28 an the highest in 1914 is BO.32. The 1914 range is with the letter a".
Constanzo, World of Lugers, reference 41, pg168.

Still, Imperial Lugers, states that very few Lugers are found with this mark.

Good Hunting,

Luke · 08-09-2002, 05:41 PM

Garfield,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge/experience . . . very helpful.
Do you feel there is any chance that the Bo.25 steel proof and the Crown/RC are connected?

Luke

Garfield · 08-09-2002, 06:34 PM

Luke:

What is the year and suffix of your DWM?

Luke · 08-09-2002, 06:46 PM

The year is 1913
The serial number is 11xx-b

Luke

Garfield · 08-09-2002, 09:43 PM

Luke:

In my opinion, I do not think that the C/RC and the BO stamp are related.

Very, very few DWMs will be found with a C/RC stamp while it is quite commonly found on Erfurt pistols, particularly the 1917s and 18s. I have a 99% 1918 Erfurt on which just about every part is stamped with the C/RC.

There is some disagreement as to what the C/RC signifies. The earlier references state that this stamp indicates that the pistol was returned to the factory for repair/rework/reissue. Later references, Gortz, German Small Arms Markings, for example, feel that the C/RC was stamped on a pistol which contained a part or parts, the acceptability of which was questioned due to a mulitude of reasons, including, but not limited to tolerances, finish, blemish, etc. If the defect/defects were determined not to affect the funtioning of the pistol or to be detrimental to the durability of the questioned part, the pistol would be accepted and the C/RC stamped in the appropriate place thereby releaving the inspector of any further responsibility.

Since but a few Erfurts and DWMs were fitted with BO barrels in 1913/14 when they were constructed it seems highly unlikely that a 1914 pistol would have been returned for repair/rework and and as part of the process been fitted with one of the few BO barrels used to test experimental bullets.

More likely, your pistol, one which contained a questionable part/parts, which was subsequently accepted and stamped with the C/RC, was initially fitted with a BO barrel. Simply that.

Luke, I inadvertantly posted this before I put it into final form so it probably doesn't make much sense. One explanation for the fact that the stamp is common on Erfurts and not on DWMs may be because DWM was a privately owned corp and Erfurt was ran by the govt. There is no question that DWM was held to tighter standards than Erfurt. DWM's govt contaract called for replacement of all questionable parts. If The C/RC indicates a return for factory rework/repair why do we so seldom see it on DWM pistols and if this is what it signifies why is it stamped on just about every part of an Erfurt pistol that was made very near the end of the war and would not have been returned to the factory for repair or refitting?

Don't know the answers to these questions but still don't think that the stamp on your pistol indicates a rework or repair,or, if it does, it did not include replacement with a BO barrel. For what it is worth: I have a 1914 and a 1913 dated DWM with BO barrels, neither have C/RC stamps on the trigger guard.

I apologise for the for drafting of this response. Just hit the wrong button.

Regards

Luke · 08-09-2002, 11:02 PM

Garfield,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful and comprehensive response to my inquiry.

One last question: In general, does this Crown/RC marking tend to make a Luger less desirable as a collectable?

Thanks,
Luke

Doubs · 08-09-2002, 11:39 PM

In correspondence with Herr Reinhard Kornmayer of Singen, Germany, the question of the Crown/RC stamp was addressed. The "RC" signifies a Special Commission whose inspectors conducted a second examination of failed parts. They then proof stamped parts with the C/RC that did not meet strict specifications but nonetheless functioned properly. The normal inspectors, who were Prussian Army officers, were then held blameless if any C/RC stamped part subsequently failed. The majority - if not all - of my 1/2 dozen or so Erfurts have the C/RC stamp somewhere on them.

I have read elsewhere that "RC" stands for "Revisions Commission" but in reviewing the letter from Herr Kornmayer (dated exactly 8 years ago today) I note that he doesn't make that statement. I can't recall exactly where I read it. He does, though, state that the C/RC definitely does not indicate repair and calls it a mistake of many collectors.

Garfield · 08-09-2002, 11:57 PM

Luke:

In my opinion the C/RC stamp does not detract from the value of the pistol. In fact, since the stamp is found so infrequently on the DWM it should enhance the value, however, to no great amount.

Good Hunting,

Garfield

Garfield · 08-10-2002, 12:08 AM

Doubs:

Good input! If for no other reason than that it confirms what I have suspected.

Regarding the term, "Revisons Commission", I too have heard this term used but can't recall the origin. Gortz, in his reference on small arms markings does not use that title either.

Good Hunting,

Doubs · 08-10-2002, 12:29 AM

Thanks, Garfield. I just found a reference for "Revisions-Commission" in John Walter's book "The Luger Story". On page 136, Walter says:

"The appearance of the 4.2mm and 2mm crown/RC 'Revisions-Commission' marks in the 1910 regulations shows that these were not exclusive to post-1918 Allied commissions. The use of 'crown/RC' indicated an otherwise serviceable weapon that had failed inspection because of poor tolerances or minor external flaws. Rejected by the inspectors, these were submitted to the Revisions Commission for appraisal. Guns that were then accepted for service were specially marked to absolve individuals if parts subsequently failed in service."

This would help to explain why a Luger dated 1913 might have the C/RC stamp on it.

Lonnie Zimmerman · 08-10-2002, 12:43 AM

Without looking it up, I believe this is what Still has to say in Imperial Lugers.
Lonnie

Ron Wood · 08-10-2002, 01:30 AM

I have a 1913 DWM with a Bo25 barrel and no Crown/RC proof. However, it is in a bit ratty condition, has a stock lug which is uncommon, and is a Death Head, so who knows how it started out originally. The frame and barrel serial numbers match and look proper. Klaus Schad looked at it a few years ago and thought it looked OK.

Luke · 08-10-2002, 11:54 AM

At the risk of being redundant, I will say again that the responses to this post are what the Luger Forum is all about.

How good it is to be able to access the knowledge and experience of such a group!

MOST SINCERE THANKS

Luke

ken d · 08-10-2002, 10:16 PM

Hello Luke:
FYI I have a 1914 dated DWM with barrel marking Bo31. Right side receiver has normal 4 DWM proofs. No C/RC anywhere on gun.

Regards Ken D

saxman · 08-11-2002, 12:05 AM

And for those of us who don't generally know enough yet to offer much here, may I say that this Forum is an incredible source of lore on all things Luger. I learn something every time I come here, and I find myself knowing the answers to some of the 'newbies' questions. I haven't been to a show since I started reading this Forum, but we have one on 8/24-25. I can't wait to see the Lugers and be able to halfway know what I'm looking at.

Hugh · 08-11-2002, 12:47 AM

<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> I have a 1914 DWM, all matching, about 95% original finish with no C/RC. It has a Bo29 on the barrel. The serial # is 7738 with no letter. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

08-09-2002, 04:19 PM	#1
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Interesting Markings on 1913 DWM Noticed a small Crown/RC on the front of the trigger guard. According to Jones' "Luger Variations," that means the gun was repaired or refinished by DWM. On the barrel above the serial number is the following: Bo.25 where the small "o" is an umlaut version which I can't reproduce here. Are these two connected? Were these barrels installed originally on DWM Lugers or used as replacements by DWM during a rework operation? Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-09-2002, 04:58 PM	#2
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Also......WOL proofmark book says there are two types of crown RC proffs, one from DWM and one from Erfurt. The fonts appear different from each maker. Don't know the answer to the last question or have anthing else to add Luke! It is said to be repair and reissue proof on both Erfurt and DWM Lugers. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-09-2002, 05:09 PM	#3
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Thor, Jones' book also shows the Erfurt and DWM markings. This one is definitely the DWM version. Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-09-2002, 05:41 PM	#5
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Garfield, Thanks for sharing your knowledge/experience . . . very helpful. Do you feel there is any chance that the Bo.25 steel proof and the Crown/RC are connected? Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-09-2002, 06:46 PM	#7
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	The year is 1913 The serial number is 11xx-b Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-09-2002, 05:26 PM	#4
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luke: Regarding the BO.25 stamp found on the bottom of the barrel on your DWM: "Bohler Stahl bottom barrel proof found on 1913 and 1914 DWM and Erfurts used to indicate that the barrel was made of Bohler steel. This was a special hardening process of the barrel to be used with experimental steel bullets. This proof is usually found with two numerals folowing the proof which indicate the degree of hardness of the steel. In 1913 models the lowest number recorded is BO.23 and the highest number recorded is BO.26. These numbers are found in both the a and b range. The lowest number recorded in the 1914 model is BO.28 an the highest in 1914 is BO.32. The 1914 range is with the letter a". Constanzo, World of Lugers, reference 41, pg168. Still, Imperial Lugers, states that very few Lugers are found with this mark. Good Hunting,

08-09-2002, 06:34 PM	#6
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luke: What is the year and suffix of your DWM?

08-09-2002, 09:43 PM	#8
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luke: In my opinion, I do not think that the C/RC and the BO stamp are related. Very, very few DWMs will be found with a C/RC stamp while it is quite commonly found on Erfurt pistols, particularly the 1917s and 18s. I have a 99% 1918 Erfurt on which just about every part is stamped with the C/RC. There is some disagreement as to what the C/RC signifies. The earlier references state that this stamp indicates that the pistol was returned to the factory for repair/rework/reissue. Later references, Gortz, German Small Arms Markings, for example, feel that the C/RC was stamped on a pistol which contained a part or parts, the acceptability of which was questioned due to a mulitude of reasons, including, but not limited to tolerances, finish, blemish, etc. If the defect/defects were determined not to affect the funtioning of the pistol or to be detrimental to the durability of the questioned part, the pistol would be accepted and the C/RC stamped in the appropriate place thereby releaving the inspector of any further responsibility. Since but a few Erfurts and DWMs were fitted with BO barrels in 1913/14 when they were constructed it seems highly unlikely that a 1914 pistol would have been returned for repair/rework and and as part of the process been fitted with one of the few BO barrels used to test experimental bullets. More likely, your pistol, one which contained a questionable part/parts, which was subsequently accepted and stamped with the C/RC, was initially fitted with a BO barrel. Simply that. Luke, I inadvertantly posted this before I put it into final form so it probably doesn't make much sense. One explanation for the fact that the stamp is common on Erfurts and not on DWMs may be because DWM was a privately owned corp and Erfurt was ran by the govt. There is no question that DWM was held to tighter standards than Erfurt. DWM's govt contaract called for replacement of all questionable parts. If The C/RC indicates a return for factory rework/repair why do we so seldom see it on DWM pistols and if this is what it signifies why is it stamped on just about every part of an Erfurt pistol that was made very near the end of the war and would not have been returned to the factory for repair or refitting? Don't know the answers to these questions but still don't think that the stamp on your pistol indicates a rework or repair,or, if it does, it did not include replacement with a BO barrel. For what it is worth: I have a 1914 and a 1913 dated DWM with BO barrels, neither have C/RC stamps on the trigger guard. I apologise for the for drafting of this response. Just hit the wrong button. Regards

08-09-2002, 11:02 PM	#9
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	Garfield, Thanks so much for your thoughtful and comprehensive response to my inquiry. One last question: In general, does this Crown/RC marking tend to make a Luger less desirable as a collectable? Thanks, Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-09-2002, 11:39 PM	#10
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,619 Times in 528 Posts	In correspondence with Herr Reinhard Kornmayer of Singen, Germany, the question of the Crown/RC stamp was addressed. The "RC" signifies a Special Commission whose inspectors conducted a second examination of failed parts. They then proof stamped parts with the C/RC that did not meet strict specifications but nonetheless functioned properly. The normal inspectors, who were Prussian Army officers, were then held blameless if any C/RC stamped part subsequently failed. The majority - if not all - of my 1/2 dozen or so Erfurts have the C/RC stamp somewhere on them. I have read elsewhere that "RC" stands for "Revisions Commission" but in reviewing the letter from Herr Kornmayer (dated exactly 8 years ago today) I note that he doesn't make that statement. I can't recall exactly where I read it. He does, though, state that the C/RC definitely does not indicate repair and calls it a mistake of many collectors.

08-09-2002, 11:57 PM	#11
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Luke: In my opinion the C/RC stamp does not detract from the value of the pistol. In fact, since the stamp is found so infrequently on the DWM it should enhance the value, however, to no great amount. Good Hunting, Garfield

08-10-2002, 12:08 AM	#12
Garfield User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A little SE of Nome Posts: 239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Doubs: Good input! If for no other reason than that it confirms what I have suspected. Regarding the term, "Revisons Commission", I too have heard this term used but can't recall the origin. Gortz, in his reference on small arms markings does not use that title either. Good Hunting,

08-10-2002, 12:29 AM	#13
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,673 Thanks: 773 Thanked 1,619 Times in 528 Posts	Thanks, Garfield. I just found a reference for "Revisions-Commission" in John Walter's book "The Luger Story". On page 136, Walter says: "The appearance of the 4.2mm and 2mm crown/RC 'Revisions-Commission' marks in the 1910 regulations shows that these were not exclusive to post-1918 Allied commissions. The use of 'crown/RC' indicated an otherwise serviceable weapon that had failed inspection because of poor tolerances or minor external flaws. Rejected by the inspectors, these were submitted to the Revisions Commission for appraisal. Guns that were then accepted for service were specially marked to absolve individuals if parts subsequently failed in service." This would help to explain why a Luger dated 1913 might have the C/RC stamp on it.

08-10-2002, 12:43 AM	#14
Lonnie Zimmerman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 523 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Without looking it up, I believe this is what Still has to say in Imperial Lugers. Lonnie __________________ Lonnie Zimmerman

08-10-2002, 01:30 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,988 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	I have a 1913 DWM with a Bo25 barrel and no Crown/RC proof. However, it is in a bit ratty condition, has a stock lug which is uncommon, and is a Death Head, so who knows how it started out originally. The frame and barrel serial numbers match and look proper. Klaus Schad looked at it a few years ago and thought it looked OK. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-10-2002, 11:54 AM	#16
Luke User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: NC - USA Posts: 1,239 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 6 Posts	At the risk of being redundant, I will say again that the responses to this post are what the Luger Forum is all about. How good it is to be able to access the knowledge and experience of such a group! MOST SINCERE THANKS Luke __________________ "Peace, if possible; truth, at any cost." . . . Martin Luther

08-10-2002, 10:16 PM	#17
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Hello Luke: FYI I have a 1914 dated DWM with barrel marking Bo31. Right side receiver has normal 4 DWM proofs. No C/RC anywhere on gun. Regards Ken D

08-11-2002, 12:05 AM	#18
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	And for those of us who don't generally know enough yet to offer much here, may I say that this Forum is an incredible source of lore on all things Luger. I learn something every time I come here, and I find myself knowing the answers to some of the 'newbies' questions. I haven't been to a show since I started reading this Forum, but we have one on 8/24-25. I can't wait to see the Lugers and be able to halfway know what I'm looking at. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

08-11-2002, 12:47 AM	#19
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> I have a 1914 DWM, all matching, about 95% original finish with no C/RC. It has a Bo29 on the barrel. The serial # is 7738 with no letter. <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*