Finn M23 luger rig with stock

[DonVoigt]

Here is my "new" Finn rig, complete with 120mm 9mm Tikka barrel(see marking on top of barrel), holster with stock straps, Finn marked originally German artillery stock, cleaning rod, and loading tool.

Pistol is relatively "new" after re-work, barrel and frame match by number, Side plate, take down lever, and trigger are not numbered; other small parts are not matching. Barrel is a higher polish blue, and was blued before installation(IMO), rest is a duller oxide hot blue/black. Bore is new.

Came with the "Sam Browne" belt with shoulder strap also.

Note that the swastika was used by Finland armed forces long before and after the Nazi's co-opted the ancient symbol.
Seen here on the base of the magazine with crack(already on its way to GT for repair!).

Probably has the strongest mainspring I've ever pulled to charge on a luger. I'll add a range report when I get a chance to shoot it.

The four different variations of Finn luger and noted below; they are specifically mentioned by the ATF as being legal with an original German or Finnish made stock attached.

The first Finn purchases were in about 1923 and later in 1928-30, they also received later lugers from Germany when allied with them fighting the Russians.
First purchases were commercial lugers , with upright crown N
-with 98mm 7,65mm barrel
These were later rebarreled by the Finns with three different barrel types:
-100mm 9mm
-120mm 7,65mm
-120mm 9mm

I believe I got this right, someone chime in if I did not or you have more info to add.

[DonVoigt]

Additional pictures of Finn luger rig and tools.
Cleaning rod is steel and unmarked, Tool marked S/155.

Stock iron is numbered 3421 along the long axis as opposed to smaller numbers crosswise as seen on German numbered stocks.
The SA in box is seen stamped into the wood. An additional smaller number "327" is stamped on the neck near the iron.

The front sight base is lower, and the sight blade taller than those found on a DWM barrel.

The holster has the mark stamped shown above- I am not sure what it represents. Any info welcome.

[Norme]

Hi Don,
Congratulations on your new acquisition and thanks for posting those interesting photos. This is the first time I've seen the leather attached to the stock, is that the way it's supposed to go?
Regards, Norm

[DonVoigt]

Thanks Norm.
Yes,
I tried it the other way 'round and it does not fit the straps as well; plus there were wear marks from the attaching latch in the leather.

The stock is removable from the holster while the holster is on the belt; and used separately from the holster- not like the German navy or artillery rig.

Unfortunately, neither number on the stock matches the pistol.

[sheepherder]

Love those 120mm Tikkakoski barrels!!!

[Edward Tinker]

I too love the 5 inch barrels.

How the ATF was written up, almost any 'normal' DWM barrel length can be used on a stock, as long as you believe it is a Finn - not all were marked....

[Ron Wood]

Don,
Well done! Nicest complete Finn rig I have seen for a while. I am envious.
Ron

[DonVoigt]

Here is what the ATF says:
Note that the ruling applies to "Finnish m/23" DWM pistols, which are a fairly narrowly defined group to most.

[Edward Tinker]

only if you are a collector and call it a M/23

otherwise, they list two barrel lengths, I believe approx 4 and 5 inches in either caliber
since there are not exact listings and the Finns used captured lugers - its pretty open isn't it?

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

only if you are a collector and call it a M/23

otherwise, they list two barrel lengths, I believe approx 4 and 5 inches in either caliber
since there are not exact listings and the Finns used captured lugers - its pretty open isn't it?

Yes,
pretty open, as long as it is a "DWM".
Like most of the "stock" rulings probably means anything goes unless "they" want to make an example of someone.


It is even cloudier, IMO, when one looks at the "distinction" between an "arm brace" and a stock for an AR with a short barrel; one is an SBR and the other is still a pistol!

[HerrKaiser]

If I am reading this thread correctly, so long as you have an interwar DWM commercial, it’s possible to claim that it was a Finnish M/23 and get a stock for it?

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by HerrKaiser

If I am reading this thread correctly, so long as you have an interwar DWM commercial, it’s possible to claim that it was a Finnish M/23 and get a stock for it?

Going by the letter of the law (Its ATF) - that if you have the combination, then it is a claimed as either a Finn or its not - my point is that if you have one, then it can be one.

In public, and with the gov't - how should you assume....

[DonVoigt]

Don't ask, don't Tell!

[DonVoigt]

Firing update - without the stock attached".

Not so hot, some failures to feed and failures to extract. So back home to trouble shoot and see what is up.

As I said, pistol is essentially "new" since rebuild, I noticed:
1-chamber rough, leaving marks on brass- probably cause of extraction failures-
- action; polish chamber, clean extractor recess, change extractor spring to a stronger one
2-chamber edge and ramp, pretty "steep"- maybe part of FTF problem
-action: break edges, give ramp a little more slope, polish ramp
3-Toggle opening force hard, very "stiff "and hard to charge - maybe related to feed issues
-action: check recoil spring and change to standard spring;
3a-Toggle stiff-check toggle movement-rear toggle knee action very stiff at near full recoil-
indicating binding due to insufficient clearance
-action: disassemble, file, sand, polish to gain clearance between mid link "eye" and rear
toggle slot, re-assemble and lube. Made a big difference in movement and perceived force needed to charge!

Next week - back to the range for results and a follow up report to be posted.

Based on this one example, I would say the Finnish armorers were not nearly as careful as the DWM workers when building/repairing a luger; but then they did work for the "government".

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

Finnish contratc Lugers don't fall in the P.08 category.

I realize that, but under which heading would you place them?
I couldn't decide and then put them here- close enough for government work.

Even the Finns called it the "08" when re-barreled to 9mm.

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I'm just realizing there is a section missing in this forum. It should be called "Foreign Military Contracts".

Right,
there is one on the "other" forum, but not here.

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by kurusu

I'm just realizing there is a section missing in this forum. It should be called "Foreign Military Contracts".

That would be a good section to add. Since those foreign contracts are of some interest to me...I have US, Swiss, Dutch, Finnish, Portuguese, Brazilian, Bolivian, Bulgarian and Russian() examples, so it would be a proper place to seek and post information about guns in that category.
Ron

[Dwight Gruber]

"Non-German" military contracts...


--Dwight

[Edward Tinker]

John D would have to add a new sub-forum

Ed

[DonVoigt]

Back to the range today.
One failure to close the toggle and one failure to extract.
Came home, pulled the barrel and did a proper polish on the chamber.

Also re-shaped the extractor hook a bit.

Next time, maybe the tweaks will take care of the last of the problems!

Just a side note, the barrel was really tight, all the way off with the wrench. Must have been a bear to put in. Way too tight, I suspect the Finn barrel threads were not cut quite deep enough, I chased them on the lathe and though still tight, it screwed back into the receiver much easier.

I may not shoot it again after these first attempts, but I just won't keep a pistol that does not function and fire as it should. One never knows when they will need one.

The way it was left from re-build, it was likely to get a Finn soldier killed if he "needed" it to use!