1921 Police Grips

Honest Jon · 07-31-2003, 01:20 AM

I am considering the purchase of a 1921 DWM Police. The grips are said to be original. There is what I'd describe as a small circular cut-out in the upper front corner of the left grip, just above the magazine release. The seller says it was done to accomodate a police conversion sear safety. That sounds reasonable and I think the seller is credible but I'm pretty ignorant of such things. That's why I'm asking on this forum. Any thought would be appreciated.

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2003, 02:38 AM

More than likely it is for a Magazine Safety, as they were taken out or clipped. I have police with and without the magazine safety. I would like to see pictures of this 1921 if you can?

Welcome to the forum!

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 07-31-2003, 02:50 AM

HonestJon,

Check the left side of the gun. You should find a hole drilled into the left side of the frame, and a small cut visible center-bottom of the flat side panel. These are the modifications made to the steel for the magazine safety. If they are there, then the grip-cut is proper, even if the mag safety is gone.

Somebody here can probably post a picture of these modifications.

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 07-31-2003, 03:35 AM

Honest Jon,

Here are a couple of photos from my 1913/1920 Erfurt/Police (Correction/Edit : My 1920 DWM Police) that might help...

The magazine safety is mostly intact but was "clipped" in the area behind the trigger to render it disabled. The sear safety is still in place atop the sear bar...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Honest Jon · 07-31-2003, 04:17 AM

Thanks for your replies thus far. The Luger in question can be found here:

www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo.html

It's the 8th one down on the left side. 1921 DWM Police. Thanks in advance for your comments!

Pete Ebbink · 07-31-2003, 04:34 AM

Honest Jon,

I think the Police lugers are most desirable if they have the magazine safety 100% full intact (i.e. not clipped), then the clipped variety, and finally with the entire safety device missing (in descending order of desirability...)

You might ask the FGS folks (Doug Smith, his son Chris, or Ken Clark) if the safety device is on this gun and its condition.

I bought my 1920 DWM police, as shown in my previous posting, last summer for ~ $ 875.00 and is at 92-90% blue and 50% straw...it also came with a pretty beat up and tired police hoslter which I traded away for some magazines...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 07-31-2003, 05:28 AM

The seller is certainly credible, but it looks to me like a piece of the grip has been broken out.

--Dwight

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2003, 05:48 AM

Pete, I think it is prety hard to find an intact one from what I am told:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />I think the Police lugers are most desirable if they have the magazine safety 100% full intact (i.e. not clipped)..<hr /></blockquote>A major collector I know said that in all his collecting, he has only seen one or two without the magazine safety NOT cut, clipped or taken out, although I have hear rumors that they have been selling some unclipped parts overseas?

But I'm always learning, so who knows, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Ed

Dwight Gruber · 07-31-2003, 06:31 AM

If memory serves me right, a well-known and respected collector opined that, since there was a directive requiring deactivation of magazine safetys, only clipped safetys are proper; complete safeties are actually questionable because of the practice of finding intact safeties and replacing the clipped ones.

(Regerettably I can't find the actual quote, so I can't rightfully name the collector.)

--Dwight

John Sabato · 07-31-2003, 02:53 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dwight Gruber:
...only clipped safetys are proper; ...<hr /></blockquote>Dwight... (with the exception of God) I think ALL absolutes are false (including this one!)

IMHO, I would have to say that I don't think that because a directive exists that you can presume that all existing police magazine safeties have been clipped... Some of this model may have been sold commercially and would therefore escape the armorer's hacksaw and file...

<img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> While the presence of an intact safety MIGHT be suspect, I can't see how anyone regardless of their collector status, could state categorically that all safeties have to be clipped to be legitimate... <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" />

and you probably can't find the quote because the collector who made it deleted it several months ago.. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

Doubs · 07-31-2003, 04:39 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John Sabato:
Dwight... (with the exception of God) I think ALL absolutes are false (including this one!)<hr /></blockquote>I'm with John on this one. When thousands of Lugers were involved and hundreds of police departments, it's not unlikely that a few slipped through the cracks and still have the complete mag safety... for any number of reasons.

OTOH, I also understand the reluctance to accept the odd police Luger with a complete mag safety. The number of "boosted" Lugers that have come to light in recent years is all the reason any collector needs to be skeptical and suspicious. It's a real shame that it's come to this point but when money is involved, some will do anything to acquire it. It's pathetic but it's a fact.

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2003, 05:13 PM

I see both Johns and Doubs points, but unless the gun was stolen (prior or during the war), it is hard for me to believe that ANY of the police models would be sold commercially. Especially since the safeties were put on during the mid to late 30's when the "police" needed them most.

And I know y'all think I'm prejudiced

but if I remember correctly, and this is splitting hairs, that Jan said that <blockquote>quote:<hr />there was a directive requiring deactivation of magazine safetys, only clipped safetys are proper...<hr /></blockquote>I think there was more to the statement, at least we have talked about it. That, just like the artillery's that snuck through (there was a directive to have ALL of them turned in also after WW1), that it is more correct to have them clipped, but does not mean they are fake.

Ed the fence rider...

Ron Wood · 07-31-2003, 05:30 PM

There is always the rogue element. Bavaria didn't retrofit Lugers with the hold open after the directive came out for that modification. I suspect that there are a few legitimate complete mag safetys out there. I saw one many years ago that probably predated faking...although that is no guarantee.

Honest Jon · 07-31-2003, 08:12 PM

I sure lit a fire and provided fodder for a discussion on magazine safeties! Could I re-direct you fine gentlemen to my original question about the grip cut-out on the Luger in question?
Thanks again...I'm already enjoying this forum.

Honest Jon

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2003, 08:28 PM

Jon, that is what the ruckess was about.

The cut out is for the magazine safety, provided this is the area you are talking about:

Which is what I mentioned on the first posting, are we talking apples and oranges? Is the cut-out in a different place?

Pete Ebbink · 07-31-2003, 08:40 PM

Hello Jon,

I think Dwight made a good point in one of his posting that the amount of wood removed on the gun you are considering for purchase appeared to be more in size than is normally seen...

The folks at FGS are very customer-oriented, so you might e-mail them and ask them to send you a close-up of the left grip panel and another photo of the magazine safety area of the frame with the grip panel removed. Then you would be able to see if the gun was fully modified for the magazine safety (i.e. hole drilled in frame and vertical slot cut in the left side panel of the frame) or whether this gun just got a set of grips added from another police pistol...

I have also posted a detailed drawing of this magazine safety device that I found in one of my older lguer books, so you might see this device in more detail :

A bit <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> but I thought I would ask the Police experts on the Forum this question :

Is a police modified magazine safety always seen with the sear safety ? Or did some police agencies do the magazine safety and not the sear safety...?

Forgive my igonrance...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Honest Jon · 07-31-2003, 09:56 PM

You guys are great source of information. I got a little side-tracked during your discussion but Edward and Pete have made things clearer in my mind.

Thanks again!

policeluger · 07-31-2003, 10:06 PM

I can not recall ever seeing a mag safety, cut or uncut, without a sear safety.

Edward Tinker · 07-31-2003, 10:18 PM

Pete, no expert yet, but in my research I have been told and seen;

If it has a magazine safety, it will have a sear safety.

If it has a sear safety it might have a magazine safety.

In Jan's Third Reich Lugers, it states that many Imperial guns were still in storage, and were issued to police in the late 30's. I quote, "in the early 30's the police required two additional safeties... On Aug 30th, 1933 a directive from the Prussian Ministry of Interior required all police P08's within the Prussian state be modified to include sear and mag safety...

On May 27th 1937, another directive that all mag safeties be rendered inoperative..."

You see them with the sear safety only; as this shows; from Weimar Lugers, I quote "these Lugers were probably introduced into police service from storage, after 1937, when only the sear safety was required."

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 08-01-2003, 01:24 AM

I had time to flip through Still's Weimar Lugers and it looks like all magazine safety cut guns do indeed come with a sear safety. And some with sear safeties are shown with no magazine safety. You guys have seemed to nail it...

Thanks !

The pistol that Honest Jon is considering, under high magnificant software, does appear to also have its sear safety mounted...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-31-2003, 01:20 AM	#1
Honest Jon User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	1921 Police Grips I am considering the purchase of a 1921 DWM Police. The grips are said to be original. There is what I'd describe as a small circular cut-out in the upper front corner of the left grip, just above the magazine release. The seller says it was done to accomodate a police conversion sear safety. That sounds reasonable and I think the seller is credible but I'm pretty ignorant of such things. That's why I'm asking on this forum. Any thought would be appreciated.

07-31-2003, 02:38 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	More than likely it is for a Magazine Safety, as they were taken out or clipped. I have police with and without the magazine safety. I would like to see pictures of this 1921 if you can? Welcome to the forum! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-31-2003, 05:48 AM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Pete, I think it is prety hard to find an intact one from what I am told: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I think the Police lugers are most desirable if they have the magazine safety 100% full intact (i.e. not clipped)..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">A major collector I know said that in all his collecting, he has only seen one or two without the magazine safety NOT cut, clipped or taken out, although I have hear rumors that they have been selling some unclipped parts overseas? But I'm always learning, so who knows, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-31-2003, 02:53 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Dwight Gruber: <strong>...only clipped safetys are proper; ...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dwight... (with the exception of God) I think ALL absolutes are false (including this one!) IMHO, I would have to say that I don't think that because a directive exists that you can presume that all existing police magazine safeties have been clipped... Some of this model may have been sold commercially and would therefore escape the armorer's hacksaw and file... <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> While the presence of an intact safety MIGHT be suspect, I can't see how anyone regardless of their collector status, could state categorically that all safeties have to be clipped to be legitimate... <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> and you probably can't find the quote because the collector who made it deleted it several months ago.. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

07-31-2003, 04:39 PM	#11
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,695 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,677 Times in 551 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John Sabato: <strong>Dwight... (with the exception of God) I think ALL absolutes are false (including this one!)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm with John on this one. When thousands of Lugers were involved and hundreds of police departments, it's not unlikely that a few slipped through the cracks and still have the complete mag safety... for any number of reasons. OTOH, I also understand the reluctance to accept the odd police Luger with a complete mag safety. The number of "boosted" Lugers that have come to light in recent years is all the reason any collector needs to be skeptical and suspicious. It's a real shame that it's come to this point but when money is involved, some will do anything to acquire it. It's pathetic but it's a fact.

07-31-2003, 02:50 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,302 Times in 429 Posts	HonestJon, Check the left side of the gun. You should find a hole drilled into the left side of the frame, and a small cut visible center-bottom of the flat side panel. These are the modifications made to the steel for the magazine safety. If they are there, then the grip-cut is proper, even if the mag safety is gone. Somebody here can probably post a picture of these modifications. --Dwight

07-31-2003, 03:35 AM	#4
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Honest Jon, Here are a couple of photos from my 1913/1920 Erfurt/Police (Correction/Edit : My 1920 DWM Police) that might help... The magazine safety is mostly intact but was "clipped" in the area behind the trigger to render it disabled. The sear safety is still in place atop the sear bar... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-31-2003, 04:17 AM	#5
Honest Jon User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for your replies thus far. The Luger in question can be found here: www.fgsinc.8m.com/photo.html It's the 8th one down on the left side. 1921 DWM Police. Thanks in advance for your comments!

07-31-2003, 04:34 AM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Honest Jon, I think the Police lugers are most desirable if they have the magazine safety 100% full intact (i.e. not clipped), then the clipped variety, and finally with the entire safety device missing (in descending order of desirability...) You might ask the FGS folks (Doug Smith, his son Chris, or Ken Clark) if the safety device is on this gun and its condition. I bought my 1920 DWM police, as shown in my previous posting, last summer for ~ $ 875.00 and is at 92-90% blue and 50% straw...it also came with a pretty beat up and tired police hoslter which I traded away for some magazines... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-31-2003, 05:28 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,302 Times in 429 Posts	The seller is certainly credible, but it looks to me like a piece of the grip has been broken out. --Dwight

07-31-2003, 06:31 AM	#9
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,302 Times in 429 Posts	If memory serves me right, a well-known and respected collector opined that, since there was a directive requiring deactivation of magazine safetys, only clipped safetys are proper; complete safeties are actually questionable because of the practice of finding intact safeties and replacing the clipped ones. (Regerettably I can't find the actual quote, so I can't rightfully name the collector.) --Dwight

07-31-2003, 05:13 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	I see both Johns and Doubs points, but unless the gun was stolen (prior or during the war), it is hard for me to believe that ANY of the police models would be sold commercially. Especially since the safeties were put on during the mid to late 30's when the "police" needed them most. And I know y'all think I'm prejudiced but if I remember correctly, and this is splitting hairs, that Jan said that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">there was a directive requiring deactivation of magazine safetys, only clipped safetys are proper...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I think there was more to the statement, at least we have talked about it. That, just like the artillery's that snuck through (there was a directive to have ALL of them turned in also after WW1), that it is *more* correct to have them clipped, but does not mean they are fake. Ed the fence rider... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-31-2003, 05:30 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	There is always the rogue element. Bavaria didn't retrofit Lugers with the hold open after the directive came out for that modification. I suspect that there are a few legitimate complete mag safetys out there. I saw one many years ago that probably predated faking...although that is no guarantee. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-31-2003, 08:12 PM	#14
Honest Jon User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I sure lit a fire and provided fodder for a discussion on magazine safeties! Could I re-direct you fine gentlemen to my original question about the grip cut-out on the Luger in question? Thanks again...I'm already enjoying this forum. Honest Jon

07-31-2003, 08:28 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Jon, that is what the ruckess was about. The cut out is for the magazine safety, provided this is the area you are talking about: Which is what I mentioned on the first posting, are we talking apples and oranges? Is the cut-out in a different place? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-31-2003, 08:40 PM	#16
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Jon, I think Dwight made a good point in one of his posting that the amount of wood removed on the gun you are considering for purchase appeared to be more in size than is normally seen... The folks at FGS are very customer-oriented, so you might e-mail them and ask them to send you a close-up of the left grip panel and another photo of the magazine safety area of the frame with the grip panel removed. Then you would be able to see if the gun was fully modified for the magazine safety (i.e. hole drilled in frame and vertical slot cut in the left side panel of the frame) or whether this gun just got a set of grips added from another police pistol... I have also posted a detailed drawing of this magazine safety device that I found in one of my older lguer books, so you might see this device in more detail : A bit <img border="0" alt="[offtopic]" title="" src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" /> but I thought I would ask the Police experts on the Forum this question : Is a police modified magazine safety always seen with the sear safety ? Or did some police agencies do the magazine safety and not the sear safety...? Forgive my igonrance... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-31-2003, 09:56 PM	#17
Honest Jon User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	You guys are great source of information. I got a little side-tracked during your discussion but Edward and Pete have made things clearer in my mind. Thanks again!

07-31-2003, 10:06 PM	#18
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I can not recall ever seeing a mag safety, cut or uncut, without a sear safety.

07-31-2003, 10:18 PM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Pete, no expert yet, but in my research I have been told and seen; If it has a magazine safety, it will have a sear safety. If it has a sear safety it might have a magazine safety. In Jan's Third Reich Lugers, it states that many Imperial guns were still in storage, and were issued to police in the late 30's. I quote, "in the early 30's the police required two additional safeties... On Aug 30th, 1933 a directive from the Prussian Ministry of Interior required all police P08's within the Prussian state be modified to include sear and mag safety... On May 27th 1937, another directive that all mag safeties be rendered inoperative..." You see them with the sear safety only; as this shows; from Weimar Lugers, I quote "these Lugers were probably introduced into police service from storage, after 1937, when only the sear safety was required." Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-01-2003, 01:24 AM	#20
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	I had time to flip through Still's Weimar Lugers and it looks like all magazine safety cut guns do indeed come with a sear safety. And some with sear safeties are shown with no magazine safety. You guys have seemed to nail it... Thanks ! The pistol that Honest Jon is considering, under high magnificant software, does appear to also have its sear safety mounted... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />