Luger Shooting Failures

azlaw · 09-19-2007, 02:03 AM

How many people here have actually experienced or seen in person serious shooting failures in person that involved a Luger? By "serious", I mean blown up gun, or major part broken, or full auto firing, or some other dangerous or catastrophic failure.

I ask the question because another post said something that you always hear, which is old guns must be treated carefully because they are old and basically may blow up. My question is: does this really happen to Lugers in real life? Has anyone actually seen a Luger fail drastically because it was old?

I expect that there have been numerous accidents involving overloads or squibs, but these occur in all guns, usually due to careless reloading. Likewise, barrel blockages are common, but again not limited to old guns. I have seen a few of these in person, fortunately the shooter was never seriously injured - the guns sure were, however - but I have not seen a serious failure that I attributed to the age of the gun.

H

Sieger · 09-19-2007, 03:03 AM

azlaw:

May be you are an attorney.

Age has nothing to do with failures. Condition has everything to do with it.

A mint condition old gun won't fail any faster than a mint condition new one.

Sieger

azlaw · 09-20-2007, 12:45 AM

I have an interest in firearms accidents and their causes. I recall reading an article in a gun magazine years ago entitled "Gun Blew Up? - It's probably your fault!" and the point of the article was that shooters with blown up guns usually tried to blame the gun, or someone else, but when the facts came out it almost always was their fault.

So this is the answer I expected. I have been shooting "old" American firearms of many years, and I have never experienced or witnessed any failure that was attributable to the age of the gun. Other mistakes for sure, but not the age of the gun. We have had a samll number of accidents in Cowboy Action Shooting due to errors in reloading - either overloads with "hot" powders, or "squibs" followed by full power rounds where the shooter didn't stop to check his bore.

I ask the question as to what you have personally witnessed because so much "second hand" information ends up being inaccurate.

H

JD · 09-20-2007, 04:33 PM

I don't think that there would be any more of a chance of "blowing up" an old gun in perfect condition than a new gun in perfect condition. The problem arises from the fact that many old guns that are out in circulation are far from being in perfect or even good condition. There has been a recent post showing a cracked toggle on lugers; imagine what might happen if the owner continued to fire the gun.....

I have a friend that owned a gun shop for a long period of time, and I inspected a lot of guns that came through his shop. Many of the older guns had clearly been subjected to abuse, neglect, and kitchen table gunsmithing over their long lives, and more than a few were to the point that they were unsafe to fire. It was not the fact that they were of older construction that was the problem, it was the fact that they had a much longer period of time to be subjected to wear and abuse, the effects of which are cumulative.

I recently saw the barrel of a fine old british double rifle which burst during firing. There was no problem with the ammo, and the gun appeared to be in perfect condition. The testing lab that performed the forensic analysis determined that the steel failed due to fatigue cracking. Basically, more than a hundred years of use had finally caused the steel to fatigue and fail. Perhaps the barrel had a small flaw in the steel which precipitated the failure, but the lab couldn't determine if that was the case.

As a structural engineer, I can say that the steel alloys available today are superior in many respects to those available in the past, and the quality control for steel available today is far superior to that of the past. In most cases it does not make a measurable difference in the performance of a firearm, but the higher strength steels used today can give a higher safety margin to help withstand abuse and wear.

In terms of the luger, I'm not concerned with blowing up the gun, but rather in abusing a fine piece of craftsmanship. The supply of vintage lugers is finite. Why run hot loads through a luger and batter it and risk breaking parts? Vintage guns should be treated with some measure of respect, and there are much cheaper new guns out there to hot rod if that is the desire........

Vlim · 09-20-2007, 04:43 PM

Blowing up? No.

The faults I did observe:
-Luger going full auto, emptying a mag in one go.
-Luger firing double shots.
-Ejector breakage (common).
-Luger disassembling itself during recoil. (takedown lever spring)
-Broken parts of front toggle link
-Broken extractors
-Rear toggle link starting to fracture
-Magazine bottoms self destructing (speading the spring and all rounds all over the place)

The luger mechanism keeps the user pretty safe from danger, as there is no slide that can work its way backwards (or a bolt, like on the C96).

Many of the faults mentioned are not new and have little to do with age, but with normal use. Springs wear out, leaf springs develop fatigue, etc..
This happened when the lugers were in day to day use 100 - 50 years ago and it will happen today.

azlaw · 09-28-2007, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
Not sure that your comment 'barrel blockages are common' will meet with much agreement here, tho'. I have been shooting since age 6 - I am now 61, and I've never seen a barrel blockage. Since you say that you have seen a few of barrel blockages and overloads in person, and I have only seen one in my entire life, I'm not sure that you are a good guy to be around any firing line that I'M on. Remind me to stay well away from you.

tac

"Blockages" in my parlance includes bullets lodged in the barrel as a result of a "squib" load. We get these occasionally in Cowboy Action shooting, where we use revolvers and there is a lot of handloading. These are supposed to be caught by the shooter, and/or the Timer, and the shooter is then stopped for a safety check. The stuck bullet is tapped out with a rod, and there is no damage.

The problem comes in when the shooter does not notice or ignores the "squib", then shoots another round into a blocked barrel. Kaboom. Actually, the lower power of CAS loads tends to preven real catastrophy, bulged barrels are a usual result. Not always however, - I have pictures somewhere of a repro 1873 carbine and a repro Colt Bisley that weren't so lucky.

H

wlw4281 · 12-17-2008, 05:40 PM

I shot the Luger 908 first time today and the following observations and experiences.
1. Store bought Winchester ammo and my reloads are tough to fit more than one round in the magazine. Is this normal? It seems you must load the rounds at a severe angle to fit more than the first into the magazine. Is this normal?
2. Shot fine with one round in magazine.
3. Loaded what I thought, was new MEC-GAR magazine and had a catastrophic magazine failure after about 3 rounds. The bottom of the magazine blew off. All I had left was a spring and shell of magazine, (See Attached pictures).
Have you ever had this type of failure? I have not. Could it be the pistol did not fully go to battery and still fire? This might have caused the extreme pressure to blow out the plastic magazine bottom, either that or magazine was faulty. Let me know your thoughts.

09-19-2007, 02:03 AM	#1
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 204 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	Luger Shooting Failures How many people here have actually experienced or seen in person serious shooting failures in person that involved a Luger? By "serious", I mean blown up gun, or major part broken, or full auto firing, or some other dangerous or catastrophic failure. I ask the question because another post said something that you always hear, which is old guns must be treated carefully because they are old and basically may blow up. My question is: does this really happen to Lugers in real life? Has anyone actually seen a Luger fail drastically because it was old? I expect that there have been numerous accidents involving overloads or squibs, but these occur in all guns, usually due to careless reloading. Likewise, barrel blockages are common, but again not limited to old guns. I have seen a few of these in person, fortunately the shooter was never seriously injured - the guns sure were, however - but I have not seen a serious failure that I attributed to the age of the gun. H

12-17-2008, 05:40 PM	#7
wlw4281 New User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	catastrophic magazine failure I shot the Luger 908 first time today and the following observations and experiences. 1. Store bought Winchester ammo and my reloads are tough to fit more than one round in the magazine. Is this normal? It seems you must load the rounds at a severe angle to fit more than the first into the magazine. Is this normal? 2. Shot fine with one round in magazine. 3. Loaded what I thought, was new MEC-GAR magazine and had a catastrophic magazine failure after about 3 rounds. The bottom of the magazine blew off. All I had left was a spring and shell of magazine, (See Attached pictures). Have you ever had this type of failure? I have not. Could it be the pistol did not fully go to battery and still fire? This might have caused the extreme pressure to blow out the plastic magazine bottom, either that or magazine was faulty. Let me know your thoughts. Attached Thumbnails

09-19-2007, 03:03 AM	#2
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	azlaw: May be you are an attorney. Age has nothing to do with failures. Condition has everything to do with it. A mint condition old gun won't fail any faster than a mint condition new one. Sieger

09-20-2007, 12:45 AM	#3
azlaw User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 204 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts	I have an interest in firearms accidents and their causes. I recall reading an article in a gun magazine years ago entitled "Gun Blew Up? - It's probably your fault!" and the point of the article was that shooters with blown up guns usually tried to blame the gun, or someone else, but when the facts came out it almost always was their fault. So this is the answer I expected. I have been shooting "old" American firearms of many years, and I have never experienced or witnessed any failure that was attributable to the age of the gun. Other mistakes for sure, but not the age of the gun. We have had a samll number of accidents in Cowboy Action Shooting due to errors in reloading - either overloads with "hot" powders, or "squibs" followed by full power rounds where the shooter didn't stop to check his bore. I ask the question as to what you have personally witnessed because so much "second hand" information ends up being inaccurate. H

09-20-2007, 04:33 PM	#4
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	I don't think that there would be any more of a chance of "blowing up" an old gun in perfect condition than a new gun in perfect condition. The problem arises from the fact that many old guns that are out in circulation are far from being in perfect or even good condition. There has been a recent post showing a cracked toggle on lugers; imagine what might happen if the owner continued to fire the gun..... I have a friend that owned a gun shop for a long period of time, and I inspected a lot of guns that came through his shop. Many of the older guns had clearly been subjected to abuse, neglect, and kitchen table gunsmithing over their long lives, and more than a few were to the point that they were unsafe to fire. It was not the fact that they were of older construction that was the problem, it was the fact that they had a much longer period of time to be subjected to wear and abuse, the effects of which are cumulative. I recently saw the barrel of a fine old british double rifle which burst during firing. There was no problem with the ammo, and the gun appeared to be in perfect condition. The testing lab that performed the forensic analysis determined that the steel failed due to fatigue cracking. Basically, more than a hundred years of use had finally caused the steel to fatigue and fail. Perhaps the barrel had a small flaw in the steel which precipitated the failure, but the lab couldn't determine if that was the case. As a structural engineer, I can say that the steel alloys available today are superior in many respects to those available in the past, and the quality control for steel available today is far superior to that of the past. In most cases it does not make a measurable difference in the performance of a firearm, but the higher strength steels used today can give a higher safety margin to help withstand abuse and wear. In terms of the luger, I'm not concerned with blowing up the gun, but rather in abusing a fine piece of craftsmanship. The supply of vintage lugers is finite. Why run hot loads through a luger and batter it and risk breaking parts? Vintage guns should be treated with some measure of respect, and there are much cheaper new guns out there to hot rod if that is the desire........

09-20-2007, 04:43 PM	#5
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Blowing up? No. The faults I did observe: -Luger going full auto, emptying a mag in one go. -Luger firing double shots. -Ejector breakage (common). -Luger disassembling itself during recoil. (takedown lever spring) -Broken parts of front toggle link -Broken extractors -Rear toggle link starting to fracture -Magazine bottoms self destructing (speading the spring and all rounds all over the place) The luger mechanism keeps the user pretty safe from danger, as there is no slide that can work its way backwards (or a bolt, like on the C96). Many of the faults mentioned are not new and have little to do with age, but with normal use. Springs wear out, leaf springs develop fatigue, etc.. This happened when the lugers were in day to day use 100 - 50 years ago and it will happen today.