New Guy in NOLA

DBMJR1 · 05-11-2017, 09:56 AM

Hello Y'all
I purchased a military DWM, a couple of years ago, from a friend. I believe it to be a re-blued example. For some reason I think it is from 1937, but for the life of me can't recall why.

(Growing old ain't for sissies) All the numbers match, except the magazine. I think the grips are reproduction, based on their good condition. It's 4" 9mm Luger. I shoot it often. It's POI is slightly left of POA, but it knocks down plates with authority.
Here's a few pictures, because we all like pictures.

On Monday, I arrived at the LGS where I work one day a week. I work there on Mondays, so that the manager can have a day off. When I arrived, his truck was in the parking lot. Very odd.
A member on another forum, Rimfire Central, had conspired with him to gift me another Luger. This one in .30 Luger.
A commercial model, I believe to be a Model of 1923, likely manufactured in 1921. I think that because it is a letter 'i' with a four digit serial number. Once again, all matching.

I'll stop talking and post pics.

This one's barrel is shorter than my 4" model, (3 5/8"?). It has the vertical Crown N, and says Gescheit.

I think it's really neat how they took care to mark the parts underneath, so as not to distract from the aesthetics. Something not required on a military model, by my limited research.
I'm not sure what to think about that front sight.
The grips on this one appear to be original, but I can't verify that.

Comparing the two magazines, I can't find a significant difference in geometry. Either magazine seems to feed the other caliber in the other pistol. Are the magazines interchangeable between calibers? When I ordered dies for the .30 Luger, I ordered a Mec-Gar magazine for 9mm.

I reload for the 9mm, and will be reloading for the .30 Luger once my dies arrive. I'm having trouble finding 93 gr projectiles, but ordered a hundred .309 100gr XTP's. Plenty of data available for 100gr jacketed for the .30 Luger, but I'm not sure XTP's are going to feed. The HAP's feed fine in my 9mm.

In any event, I'll be shooting both pistols Sunday at the range.

That rounds out my little collection. If there's any insight y'all can provide, it'd be welcomed.

Don

mrerick · 05-11-2017, 10:49 AM

Hi Don, and welcome to the forum.

Your 9mm Luger has been refinished and appears heavily buffed. if it functions properly, it's an ideal shooter.

DWM wrapped up and shipped all production to Mauser at Oberndorf in 1930. I can't make out detail in your photos, so can't help that much without the serial and suffix. In any case, if it were a WW-I military gun it would have the date on the receiver's chamber.

It looks like someone engraver scribed serial number digits on the receiver after it was refinished and buffed. The proof acceptance marks on the receiver look like those applied at the DWM factory.

We publish an FAQ on this site that you'll find helpful:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121

Your DWM Alphabet Commercial Luger in .30 Luger is in it's original finish, so you have an idea how these guns look when they left the factory. The "i" block was the first block with letter suffix, following roughly serial number 92000. It was made in the early 1920's.

The magazine in your 9mm Luger is a fxo milled magazine made by Haenel Schmeisser in Suhl. It's the best magazine available for shooting LUgers, and dates from late WW-II.

The holster looks like a stretched out post war P,38 police holster or an East German police holster from after the war.

Please try taking some sharp pictures of the detailed markings in shaded natural light.

Marc

ithacaartist · 05-11-2017, 11:06 AM

It's not that the military didn't require the sn to be hidden, but that they required them to be shown!

DBMJR1 · 05-11-2017, 12:09 PM

Thank You for the replies.

The holster was gifted with the Commercial Luger. I believe it to be an aftermarket reproduction. On the back side it is marked Geco, with the number 62 under that.

Thank you for the information on the milled magazine. I did not know that, and know little about the magazines in general.

Question, is there any significant difference between magazines for the .30 Luger and the 9mm, or are they interchangeable?

Any input on the front sight of the commercial Luger would be valued. It appears as if a brass bead has been brazed onto it. (See pic)

I'll check out the suggested thread right now, to see if I can get a more accurate idea of the date of the re-blued military Luger.

Thank You both, for the replies.

DBMJR1 · 05-11-2017, 12:50 PM

Would I be correct in looking at this mark,

, and matching it to the 1911 DWM mark shown top right here,
http://www.lugerforum.com/Suffixes/S...s/page0001.htm

?

DonVoigt · 05-11-2017, 02:38 PM

I believe you are reading more into that site and the dates/pictures than intended or true.
DWM "d"s are the same from 1910 to 1918 and later, maybe struck harder or lighter or with a new or worn die, but not really changed. Font stamps would have been present in multiple examples all hand carved, and replaced as needed.

One cannot date the frame from the suffix letter alone- so give it up!

George Anderson · 05-11-2017, 03:04 PM

Based on the acceptance stamps, the first pistol is/was a 1917 or 1918 DWM military.

DBMJR1 · 05-11-2017, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

I believe you are reading more into that site and the dates/pictures than intended or true.
DWM "d"s are the same from 1910 to 1918 and later, maybe struck harder or lighter or with a new or worn die, but not really changed. Font stamps would have been present in multiple examples all hand carved, and replaced as needed.

One cannot date the frame from the suffix letter alone- so give it up!

Ah thank you. Sometimes a little knowledge is dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

Based on the acceptance stamps, the first pistol is/was a 1917 or 1918 DWM military.

Thank You very much for that information Mr. Anderson.
My head was starting to ache.

Lyn Islaub · 05-11-2017, 06:58 PM

I believe the front site to be an aftermarket one from King. I have one on one of my 1906 Lugers and believe they were available for many years after that.
Lyn

Lyn Islaub · 05-11-2017, 06:59 PM

Let's think a moment: a Site is a place and sight is an aiming point. Sorry for the spelling.
Lyn

DonVoigt · 05-11-2017, 11:23 PM

Yes,
I meant "site" as in the site where the pictures of suffixes and their dates are shown.

I also believe the front "sight" is an aftermarket sight.

Lyn Islaub · 05-12-2017, 01:01 PM

A correction to my correction? Hmmm.

alanint · 05-12-2017, 01:55 PM

The serial number on the first pistol's frame has been ground off?

This could be a problem. Or did you block it out?

mrerick · 05-12-2017, 03:44 PM

It looks like it was ground of when the gun was refinished and heavily buffed. The serial number on the barrel was also removed.

You can see that the receiver is a little proud of the frame.

Don, the problem that that creates is that the legal serial number of the Luger is the one on the front of the frame, including the suffix letter (which looks like "d" on your pistol).

The assumption would be that the gun's serial is 3773d, but the numbers elsewhere may have been changed.

The obliteration of that serial number, and the addition of the numbers on the receiver and other parts by engraving (and not in the DWM font either) indicates that the gun's serial number may have been manipulated.

That is an ATF issue, and a likely violation of law. I believe that there is a process for adding back the serial number, and making it legal again, but don't know the details.

DBMJR1 · 05-12-2017, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

It looks like it was ground of when the gun was refinished and heavily buffed. The serial number on the barrel was also removed.

You can see that the receiver is a little proud of the frame.

Don, the problem that that creates is that the legal serial number of the Luger is the one on the front of the frame, including the suffix letter (which looks like "d" on your pistol).

The assumption would be that the gun's serial is 3773d, but the numbers elsewhere may have been changed.

The obliteration of that serial number, and the addition of the numbers on the receiver and other parts by engraving (and not in the DWM font either) indicates that the gun's serial number may have been manipulated.

That is an ATF issue, and a likely violation of law. I believe that there is a process for adding back the serial number, and making it legal again, but don't know the details.

Thank You for that. I work at a LGS part time. I'll make an inquiry to the ATF field agent.

05-11-2017, 09:56 AM	#1
DBMJR1 User Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New Guy in NOLA Hello Y'all I purchased a military DWM, a couple of years ago, from a friend. I believe it to be a re-blued example. For some reason I think it is from 1937, but for the life of me can't recall why. (Growing old ain't for sissies) All the numbers match, except the magazine. I think the grips are reproduction, based on their good condition. It's 4" 9mm Luger. I shoot it often. It's POI is slightly left of POA, but it knocks down plates with authority. Here's a few pictures, because we all like pictures. On Monday, I arrived at the LGS where I work one day a week. I work there on Mondays, so that the manager can have a day off. When I arrived, his truck was in the parking lot. Very odd. A member on another forum, Rimfire Central, had conspired with him to gift me another Luger. This one in .30 Luger. A commercial model, I believe to be a Model of 1923, likely manufactured in 1921. I think that because it is a letter 'i' with a four digit serial number. Once again, all matching. I'll stop talking and post pics. This one's barrel is shorter than my 4" model, (3 5/8"?). It has the vertical Crown N, and says Gescheit. I think it's really neat how they took care to mark the parts underneath, so as not to distract from the aesthetics. Something not required on a military model, by my limited research. I'm not sure what to think about that front sight. The grips on this one appear to be original, but I can't verify that. Comparing the two magazines, I can't find a significant difference in geometry. Either magazine seems to feed the other caliber in the other pistol. Are the magazines interchangeable between calibers? When I ordered dies for the .30 Luger, I ordered a Mec-Gar magazine for 9mm. I reload for the 9mm, and will be reloading for the .30 Luger once my dies arrive. I'm having trouble finding 93 gr projectiles, but ordered a hundred .309 100gr XTP's. Plenty of data available for 100gr jacketed for the .30 Luger, but I'm not sure XTP's are going to feed. The HAP's feed fine in my 9mm. In any event, I'll be shooting both pistols Sunday at the range. That rounds out my little collection. If there's any insight y'all can provide, it'd be welcomed. Don Last edited by DBMJR1; 05-13-2017 at 09:04 AM. Reason: I broke the links to the pictures, by renaming a folder.

05-11-2017, 10:49 AM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Hi Don, and welcome to the forum. Your 9mm Luger has been refinished and appears heavily buffed. if it functions properly, it's an ideal shooter. DWM wrapped up and shipped all production to Mauser at Oberndorf in 1930. I can't make out detail in your photos, so can't help that much without the serial and suffix. In any case, if it were a WW-I military gun it would have the date on the receiver's chamber. It looks like someone engraver scribed serial number digits on the receiver after it was refinished and buffed. The proof acceptance marks on the receiver look like those applied at the DWM factory. We publish an FAQ on this site that you'll find helpful: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=13121 Your DWM Alphabet Commercial Luger in .30 Luger is in it's original finish, so you have an idea how these guns look when they left the factory. The "i" block was the first block with letter suffix, following roughly serial number 92000. It was made in the early 1920's. The magazine in your 9mm Luger is a fxo milled magazine made by Haenel Schmeisser in Suhl. It's the best magazine available for shooting LUgers, and dates from late WW-II. The holster looks like a stretched out post war P,38 police holster or an East German police holster from after the war. Please try taking some sharp pictures of the detailed markings in shaded natural light. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

05-11-2017, 11:06 AM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,346 Thanks: 7,280 Thanked 2,578 Times in 1,365 Posts	It's not that the military didn't require the sn to be hidden, but that they required them to be shown! __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

05-11-2017, 02:38 PM	#6
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I believe you are reading more into that site and the dates/pictures than intended or true. DWM "d"s are the same from 1910 to 1918 and later, maybe struck harder or lighter or with a new or worn die, but not really changed. Font stamps would have been present in multiple examples all hand carved, and replaced as needed. One cannot date the frame from the suffix letter alone- so give it up! __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-11-2017, 11:23 PM	#11
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	Yes, I meant "site" as in the site where the pictures of suffixes and their dates are shown. I also believe the front "sight" is an aftermarket sight. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

05-11-2017, 12:09 PM	#4
DBMJR1 User Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank You for the replies. The holster was gifted with the Commercial Luger. I believe it to be an aftermarket reproduction. On the back side it is marked Geco, with the number 62 under that. Thank you for the information on the milled magazine. I did not know that, and know little about the magazines in general. Question, is there any significant difference between magazines for the .30 Luger and the 9mm, or are they interchangeable? Any input on the front sight of the commercial Luger would be valued. It appears as if a brass bead has been brazed onto it. (See pic) I'll check out the suggested thread right now, to see if I can get a more accurate idea of the date of the re-blued military Luger. Thank You both, for the replies.

05-11-2017, 12:50 PM	#5
DBMJR1 User Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Would I be correct in looking at this mark, , and matching it to the 1911 DWM mark shown top right here, http://www.lugerforum.com/Suffixes/S...s/page0001.htm ?

05-11-2017, 03:04 PM	#7
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	Based on the acceptance stamps, the first pistol is/was a 1917 or 1918 DWM military.

05-11-2017, 06:58 PM	#9
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	I believe the front site to be an aftermarket one from King. I have one on one of my 1906 Lugers and believe they were available for many years after that. Lyn

05-11-2017, 06:59 PM	#10
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	Let's think a moment: a Site is a place and sight is an aiming point. Sorry for the spelling. Lyn

05-12-2017, 01:01 PM	#12
Lyn Islaub Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 435 Thanks: 3 Thanked 152 Times in 72 Posts	A correction to my correction? Hmmm.

05-12-2017, 01:55 PM	#13
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The serial number on the first pistol's frame has been ground off? This could be a problem. Or did you block it out?

05-12-2017, 03:44 PM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	It looks like it was ground of when the gun was refinished and heavily buffed. The serial number on the barrel was also removed. You can see that the receiver is a little proud of the frame. Don, the problem that that creates is that the legal serial number of the Luger is the one on the front of the frame, including the suffix letter (which looks like "d" on your pistol). The assumption would be that the gun's serial is 3773d, but the numbers elsewhere may have been changed. The obliteration of that serial number, and the addition of the numbers on the receiver and other parts by engraving (and not in the DWM font either) indicates that the gun's serial number may have been manipulated. That is an ATF issue, and a likely violation of law. I believe that there is a process for adding back the serial number, and making it legal again, but don't know the details. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.