Shooting Lugers too much?

unspellable · 12-23-2002, 09:06 PM

Have I been shooting Lugers too much? Today my Browning 22 started acting like a Luger and decided it doesn't like Winchester Wildcat 22's. Won't blow the breech block back far enough to pick up the next round or lock the hold open. The old winpy ammo syndrome. Runs with out a hitch on Remington hollowpoints.

I'll end up having to rebarrel a Luger for one of the 22 centerfire wildcats.

unspellable · 12-27-2002, 11:00 AM

Rick,

I've been using Winchester T22's in my S&W 41. I have the impression that the S&W 41 is set up for mild target loads while the Browning is set up for more general purpose usage. As a non-relevant side issue, I get about the same velocity from both the T22 and the wildcat out of a six inch revolver.

Both examples of the 30 Luger necked down to 22 in your pictures look like they would work in a single shot pistol, but the OAL would be wrong to go through the Luger feed system.

I know of three wildcats based on necking the 30 Luger down to 22, but next to nothing beyond the fact that they exist.

If I get into this, I'd like to think in terms of something that would feed through the Luger. I've also thought of using a sabot to run a 22 bullet in the 30 caliber barrel.

The next question, is can one gain enough velocity to make it all worth the effort? Seems like you would want to reach 2000 fps to justify the effort, but would the pressures involved make the bluing fall off the gun? I'll have to sit dwon and run this on paper and see where it comes out.

G.T. · 12-28-2002, 02:38 PM

Hi Rick & unspellable! Rick, Thanks for the Christmas card! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Would a longer barrel aid in making the sabotted .22/.30 luger idea work??? It seems that a pencil thin 8 inch unit might be what the doctor ordered for a little more push!? I have been wondering about this since you and I first started comparing notes! Best to all on this holiday season! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

unspellable · 12-28-2002, 05:49 PM

GT,

I still owe you some 32 caliber lead bullets to slug your barrels with. Let me know your mailing address via my private posting and I'll get them off in the next day or two.

A longer barrel is heavier, hence more impulse is required to operate the action. This is offset by the fact that a longer barrel produces more velocity, hence more impulse, but generally the weight wins out and long barrels require stiffer loads. Going to a pencil barrel reduces the weight. One of the problems here is that a 22 will produce less impulse unless it can be driven at really high velocity.

I've looked at some 22/308 sabots and wondered... Will a sabot grip the bullet well enough to go through the feed cycle? At the very best, a saboted bullet will be no more accurate than a full sized bullet in the same barrel. However it might be worth trying as a proof of concept before you start messing with custom barrels and cleaning out all your mad money.

I'll sit down this weekend and run some numbers on paper to see what I come up with. There isn't much in the way of a similar cartridge to get a feel for pressure versus performance.

My idea of such a gun would be a barrel length of five to eight inches and adjustable sights.

(And I don't have my wadcutter Luger set up yet!)

Lugerdoc · 12-29-2002, 08:21 AM

I don't believe just changing the barrel caliber and length with solve the feed problems with a 30 luger case necked down to 22. I know that in the case of John Martz's 22WM, in addition to welding two frame together and designing a new magazine for the additional length of the cartridge, which shouldn't be necessary here, he also had to redesign the toggle ramps of the frame, the length of the rear toggle link and the power of the recoil assy, go get the thing to work reliably. Tom H.

unspellable · 12-29-2002, 01:28 PM

I knew of the Martz 22 Wm, but very little about the mechanics of it. I have assumed it was modified to operate as a blow back like the Erma and Stoeger look likes.

By the way, the 17 rimfire presents no special problems in any self loader originally designed for the 22 WM as they are blow backs and depend on the prssure curve to operate rather than impulse. There are a number of rifles around, but I keep hoping for a decent pistol. The AMT 22 mag pistol doesn't strike me as a very good example. For starters the eaxmples I've seen had a really bad trigger pull.

As for the 22 centerfire Luger concept, I forsee no modificatuions to the pistol other than replaceing the barrel and recoil spring. The magazine might require some modification to feed properly.

Second point, while running things on paper it dawned on me that one might use a 30 mauser or Tokarov case. By trimming it back you could end up with a bit more capacity than the 30 Luger case.

I'll have to get some cases and measure actual capacity but going by outside diminsions, I was surprised to find the 30 Luger case occupies more volume than a 22 Hornet case.

Using SAAMI pressures for the 30 Luger it should get a saboted 45 grain 22 up to around 2200 fps and have just enough impulse to cycle.

The same 45 gr 22 bullet going through a 22 barrel would need to do better than 2000 fps to cycle the action even with a soft recoil spring. The Hornet will do this with a 10 inch barrel.

I think the Luger using a shortened and necked down 30 Mauser case will break 2000 fps with a six or eight inch barrel. This would exceed SAAMI presuures for the 30 Luger but might stay within SAAMI limits for the 9 mm. The action design pressure is actually higher than this, but you have to keep in mind that the individual pistol wasn't proofed for use at the design pressure unless it was a carbine.

The BIG question: Is 2000 fps worth all the cost and rigamarole?

12-23-2002, 09:06 PM	#1
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Shooting Lugers too much? Have I been shooting Lugers too much? Today my Browning 22 started acting like a Luger and decided it doesn't like Winchester Wildcat 22's. Won't blow the breech block back far enough to pick up the next round or lock the hold open. The old winpy ammo syndrome. Runs with out a hitch on Remington hollowpoints. I'll end up having to rebarrel a Luger for one of the 22 centerfire wildcats.

12-29-2002, 08:21 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	I don't believe just changing the barrel caliber and length with solve the feed problems with a 30 luger case necked down to 22. I know that in the case of John Martz's 22WM, in addition to welding two frame together and designing a new magazine for the additional length of the cartridge, which shouldn't be necessary here, he also had to redesign the toggle ramps of the frame, the length of the rear toggle link and the power of the recoil assy, go get the thing to work reliably. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

12-27-2002, 11:00 AM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Rick, I've been using Winchester T22's in my S&W 41. I have the impression that the S&W 41 is set up for mild target loads while the Browning is set up for more general purpose usage. As a non-relevant side issue, I get about the same velocity from both the T22 and the wildcat out of a six inch revolver. Both examples of the 30 Luger necked down to 22 in your pictures look like they would work in a single shot pistol, but the OAL would be wrong to go through the Luger feed system. I know of three wildcats based on necking the 30 Luger down to 22, but next to nothing beyond the fact that they exist. If I get into this, I'd like to think in terms of something that would feed through the Luger. I've also thought of using a sabot to run a 22 bullet in the 30 caliber barrel. The next question, is can one gain enough velocity to make it all worth the effort? Seems like you would want to reach 2000 fps to justify the effort, but would the pressures involved make the bluing fall off the gun? I'll have to sit dwon and run this on paper and see where it comes out.

12-28-2002, 02:38 PM	#3
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,486 Thanks: 1,284 Thanked 3,583 Times in 989 Posts	Hi Rick & unspellable! Rick, Thanks for the Christmas card! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Would a longer barrel aid in making the sabotted .22/.30 luger idea work??? It seems that a pencil thin 8 inch unit might be what the doctor ordered for a little more push!? I have been wondering about this since you and I first started comparing notes! Best to all on this holiday season! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

12-28-2002, 05:49 PM	#4
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	GT, I still owe you some 32 caliber lead bullets to slug your barrels with. Let me know your mailing address via my private posting and I'll get them off in the next day or two. A longer barrel is heavier, hence more impulse is required to operate the action. This is offset by the fact that a longer barrel produces more velocity, hence more impulse, but generally the weight wins out and long barrels require stiffer loads. Going to a pencil barrel reduces the weight. One of the problems here is that a 22 will produce less impulse unless it can be driven at really high velocity. I've looked at some 22/308 sabots and wondered... Will a sabot grip the bullet well enough to go through the feed cycle? At the very best, a saboted bullet will be no more accurate than a full sized bullet in the same barrel. However it might be worth trying as a proof of concept before you start messing with custom barrels and cleaning out all your mad money. I'll sit down this weekend and run some numbers on paper to see what I come up with. There isn't much in the way of a similar cartridge to get a feel for pressure versus performance. My idea of such a gun would be a barrel length of five to eight inches and adjustable sights. (And I don't have my wadcutter Luger set up yet!)

12-29-2002, 01:28 PM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I knew of the Martz 22 Wm, but very little about the mechanics of it. I have assumed it was modified to operate as a blow back like the Erma and Stoeger look likes. By the way, the 17 rimfire presents no special problems in any self loader originally designed for the 22 WM as they are blow backs and depend on the prssure curve to operate rather than impulse. There are a number of rifles around, but I keep hoping for a decent pistol. The AMT 22 mag pistol doesn't strike me as a very good example. For starters the eaxmples I've seen had a really bad trigger pull. As for the 22 centerfire Luger concept, I forsee no modificatuions to the pistol other than replaceing the barrel and recoil spring. The magazine might require some modification to feed properly. Second point, while running things on paper it dawned on me that one might use a 30 mauser or Tokarov case. By trimming it back you could end up with a bit more capacity than the 30 Luger case. I'll have to get some cases and measure actual capacity but going by outside diminsions, I was surprised to find the 30 Luger case occupies more volume than a 22 Hornet case. Using SAAMI pressures for the 30 Luger it should get a saboted 45 grain 22 up to around 2200 fps and have just enough impulse to cycle. The same 45 gr 22 bullet going through a 22 barrel would need to do better than 2000 fps to cycle the action even with a soft recoil spring. The Hornet will do this with a 10 inch barrel. I think the Luger using a shortened and necked down 30 Mauser case will break 2000 fps with a six or eight inch barrel. This would exceed SAAMI presuures for the 30 Luger but might stay within SAAMI limits for the 9 mm. The action design pressure is actually higher than this, but you have to keep in mind that the individual pistol wasn't proofed for use at the design pressure unless it was a carbine. The BIG question: Is 2000 fps worth all the cost and rigamarole?