C&R License

Major Tom · 04-18-2018, 05:21 PM

I am considering applying for one. I know it's for older firearms. So, what can I buy with it? Especially older lugers. Is there a set year and/or age of firearm?
Many thanks

George Anderson · 04-18-2018, 05:53 PM

I believe it's 1946.

mrerick · 04-21-2018, 01:59 PM

Most Luger's are also included with the named pistols on the ATF list regardless of age. The post war Mauser Luger's are C&R.

Edward Tinker · 04-21-2018, 03:40 PM

Go to google - put in C&R BATF - it will bring up the regulations - there are a few addendums - I was going to add it here, but its over 5 megabytes.

Along with the 50 yr rule, it includes some items and not others as C&R - such as East German Makarov's, made in the 1980's, but they were found to be special and unique - although Bulgarian Maks are not.

Over 50 yrs you can have them sent directly to your house (depending on a few states).

Ed

deserthumvee · 04-22-2018, 01:20 PM

Keep in mind that in the papers you sign you give up your civilian rights to search and seizure as I do with my 01 FFL. The difference is that your C&R is most likely out of your home. For that reason alone, I would not do it. In my state I could have an FFL at my home but I went to great expense not to and built a shop with a different address.

zinfull · 04-22-2018, 02:14 PM

The FFL03 does not give up your rights to search. They need to make appointments and you have a choice of taking your goods to them or have it done in house. They can not show up and force their way in for compliance checks.

cirelaw · 04-22-2018, 04:28 PM

Heres a hint. I already had my Florida concealed permit and included with the the Fed Application, I took less than a month. It worked for me!!! I Luv This State!! Eric

rhinemann · 04-22-2018, 06:40 PM

FFL-03 I found very useful to help in this hobby. It allows you the ability to cross state lines with out having to go thru a FFl-01 to acquire a collectable piece. Also a FFL-01 is required to turn in their A&D log book when they decide to turn in their license. A FFL-03 does not turn in their A&D log to BATF when you ever decide not to renew your license.

mrerick · 04-22-2018, 06:59 PM

Enabler alert!

The C&R is also a license to spend money.

deserthumvee · 04-23-2018, 08:59 AM

When you sign your paperwork for your C&R 03 FFL you are allowing batf full access to your records and listed firearms at the address listed on your application without a warrant or Court order. There is no requirement on their part to allow you to bring your records and firearms to another location for inspection. BATF never makes appointments...they just show up!

deserthumvee · 04-23-2018, 10:17 AM

I am not trying to be an alarmist here. I know that BATF has generally been 'hands off' C&R holders but my point isn't based on what they do it's based on what they can do. You also have to be aware of the fine line between 'improving your collection' and acting as a dealer. You also have the responsibility to ensure the recipient of your firearm is not a felon or is unfit to possess that arm and you don't have access to NICS. Last, when you are a private collector you might get away with pleading ignorance, but when you sign that license you confirm that you understand and will conform to all Local, State and Federal laws.

Bill_in_VA · 04-23-2018, 08:54 PM

Doom and gloom from the new guy FFL.
I've had a C&R FFL for 22 years now. I have had one compliance inspection in those 22 years and it was more because he literally happened to be in the neighborhood running compliance check on a dealer literally one block away from my home. It was a non-issue and took all of 45 minutes. He ran over a check list of what is required of me, asked to see my bound books, and randomly asked to see a few guns. I elected to allow him in the house rather than drag all my **** to the nearest ATF filed office an hour away in Bristol. And yes, John, CFR 478.23(c) explicitly requires them to allow me to do so. §478.23 Right of entry and examination.
(c) At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises. https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...se27.3.478_123

As far as them barging into your home unannounced for a compliance inspection again, no, they cannot. They can enter during business hours, but a collector is specifically not a dealer - the law is clear on that.

You are required to keep a bound book of all C&R firearms acquired or disposed of while you hold a valid 03 (C&R) FFL. It has nothing to do with whether or not you "use" your FFL. You are either a licensee or you are not a licensee - if you are a licensee you are required to record your A&D. Non-C&R firearms aren't logged, nor are firearms acquired prior to your C&R FFL unless you dispose of them while your FFL is valid. Honestly, it's no big deal.
I find the conveniences of having a C&R FFL far, far outweigh the doom and gloom John so sagely claims will befall the licensee.

cirelaw · 04-23-2018, 11:26 PM

Its not worth it!!

John Sabato · 04-24-2018, 11:09 AM

Opinions are like.... elbows... almost everybody has them... What works for some is too much trouble for others...

Eugen · 05-25-2018, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

Its not worth it!!

I love mine, especially because I live in Illinois, a blue state that overly regulates firearms. My FFL3 has saved me time, money and reduced the hassle factor in buying qualifying guns.

Major Tom · 05-26-2018, 09:03 AM

A "bound book"? Just exactly what is that? Is it a special book that you buy or just a notebook of your purchases and sales?

Eugen · 05-26-2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Tom

A "bound book"? Just exactly what is that? Is it a special book that you buy or just a notebook of your purchases and sales?

If you go to Amazon or eBay and search for "C&R bound book or log" you will find many choices. As I recall that is what I did and got exactly what I needed.

DonVoigt · 05-26-2018, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Major Tom

A "bound book"? Just exactly what is that? Is it a special book that you buy or just a notebook of your purchases and sales?

It is all explained in the C & R materials you would receive, or you can read about it on the ATF web site.

It can be as complicated or simple as you wish, you don't have to "buy" a special book. There is even software available to create it on a computer.

sheepherder · 05-26-2018, 11:39 AM

You should also be aware that not all states recognize an 03 FFL. New York only recognizes an 01 FFL for transfers of handguns, regardless of within the state or across state lines. I can only image that California is even more stringent.

ithacaartist · 05-26-2018, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sheepherder

You should also be aware that not all states recognize an 03 FFL. New York only recognizes an 01 FFL for transfers of handguns, regardless of within the state or across state lines. I can only image that California is even more stringent.

That's right. An 03 is basically worthless here in NY, with the possible exception that a holder can get discounts on ammo or supplies ordered. But one would still need to retrieve the ammo from an 01, where it now needs to be shipped. Initially, the S.A.F.E. Act called for background checks for ammo purchases. The provision was never implemented, but the inability of legally receiving ammo shipped directly to individuals has remained. Some auctions just send it anyway. I received two boxes once, sent in a small flat rate USPS box, which I think is a no-no for the sender.

04-18-2018, 05:21 PM	#1
Major Tom User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: S.E. Iowa Posts: 484 Thanks: 533 Thanked 227 Times in 124 Posts	C&R License I am considering applying for one. I know it's for older firearms. So, what can I buy with it? Especially older lugers. Is there a set year and/or age of firearm? Many thanks __________________ I Build Custom Pistol Boxes

04-21-2018, 01:59 PM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Most Luger's are also included with the named pistols on the ATF list regardless of age. The post war Mauser Luger's are C&R. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-21-2018, 03:40 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Go to google - put in C&R BATF - it will bring up the regulations - there are a few addendums - I was going to add it here, but its over 5 megabytes. Along with the 50 yr rule, it includes some items and not others as C&R - such as East German Makarov's, made in the 1980's, but they were found to be special and unique - although Bulgarian Maks are not. Over 50 yrs you can have them sent directly to your house (depending on a few states). Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

04-22-2018, 06:59 PM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Enabler alert! The C&R is also a license to spend money. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-23-2018, 08:54 PM	#12
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 373 Thanks: 770 Thanked 554 Times in 198 Posts	Doom and gloom from the new guy FFL. I've had a C&R FFL for 22 years now. I have had one compliance inspection in those 22 years and it was more because he literally happened to be in the neighborhood running compliance check on a dealer literally one block away from my home. It was a non-issue and took all of 45 minutes. He ran over a check list of what is required of me, asked to see my bound books, and randomly asked to see a few guns. I elected to allow him in the house rather than drag all my ** to the nearest ATF filed office an hour away in Bristol. And yes, John, CFR 478.23(c) explicitly requires them to allow me to do so. §478.23 Right of entry and examination. (c) At the election of the licensed collector, the annual inspection permitted by this paragraph shall be performed at the ATF office responsible for conducting such inspection in closest proximity to the collectors premises. https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...se27.3.478_123 As far as them barging into your home unannounced for a compliance inspection again, no, they cannot. They can enter during business hours, but a collector is specifically not a dealer - the law is clear on that. You are required to keep a bound book of all C&R firearms acquired or disposed of while you hold a valid 03 (C&R) FFL. It has nothing to do with whether or not you "use" your FFL. You are either a licensee or you are not a licensee - if you are a licensee you are required to record your A&D. Non-C&R firearms aren't logged, nor are firearms acquired prior to your C&R FFL unless you dispose of them while your FFL is valid. Honestly, it's no big deal. I find the conveniences of having a C&R FFL far, far outweigh the doom and gloom John so sagely claims will befall the licensee. __________________ John 8:32 reive** (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues." Last edited by Bill_in_VA; 04-24-2018 at 02:30 PM.

04-18-2018, 05:53 PM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,773 Thanked 2,529 Times in 787 Posts	I believe it's 1946.

04-22-2018, 01:20 PM	#5
deserthumvee User Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Maine Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 4 Posts	Keep in mind that in the papers you sign you give up your civilian rights to search and seizure as I do with my 01 FFL. The difference is that your C&R is most likely out of your home. For that reason alone, I would not do it. In my state I could have an FFL at my home but I went to great expense not to and built a shop with a different address.

04-22-2018, 02:14 PM	#6
zinfull Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sonoma County CA Posts: 243 Thanks: 5 Thanked 33 Times in 16 Posts	The FFL03 does not give up your rights to search. They need to make appointments and you have a choice of taking your goods to them or have it done in house. They can not show up and force their way in for compliance checks.

04-22-2018, 04:28 PM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Heres a hint. I already had my Florida concealed permit and included with the the Fed Application, I took less than a month. It worked for me!!! I Luv This State!! Eric

04-22-2018, 06:40 PM	#8
rhinemann User Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: S. Calif. Posts: 67 Thanks: 14 Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts	FFL-03 I found very useful to help in this hobby. It allows you the ability to cross state lines with out having to go thru a FFl-01 to acquire a collectable piece. Also a FFL-01 is required to turn in their A&D log book when they decide to turn in their license. A FFL-03 does not turn in their A&D log to BATF when you ever decide not to renew your license.

04-23-2018, 08:59 AM	#10
deserthumvee User Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Maine Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 4 Posts	When you sign your paperwork for your C&R 03 FFL you are allowing batf full access to your records and listed firearms at the address listed on your application without a warrant or Court order. There is no requirement on their part to allow you to bring your records and firearms to another location for inspection. BATF never makes appointments...they just show up!

04-23-2018, 10:17 AM	#11
deserthumvee User Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Maine Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 4 Posts	I am not trying to be an alarmist here. I know that BATF has generally been 'hands off' C&R holders but my point isn't based on what they do it's based on what they can do. You also have to be aware of the fine line between 'improving your collection' and acting as a dealer. You also have the responsibility to ensure the recipient of your firearm is not a felon or is unfit to possess that arm and you don't have access to NICS. Last, when you are a private collector you might get away with pleading ignorance, but when you sign that license you confirm that you understand and will conform to all Local, State and Federal laws.

04-23-2018, 11:26 PM	#13
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Its not worth it!!

04-24-2018, 11:09 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Opinions are like.... elbows... almost everybody has them... What works for some is too much trouble for others... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-26-2018, 09:03 AM	#16
Major Tom User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: S.E. Iowa Posts: 484 Thanks: 533 Thanked 227 Times in 124 Posts	A "bound book"? Just exactly what is that? Is it a special book that you buy or just a notebook of your purchases and sales? __________________ I Build Custom Pistol Boxes

05-26-2018, 11:39 AM	#19
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	You should also be aware that not all states recognize an 03 FFL. New York only recognizes an 01 FFL for transfers of handguns, regardless of within the state or across state lines. I can only image that California is even more stringent. __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...