Authenticity Issues

Heydrich · 07-06-2002, 01:27 AM

I have been reading some of the older posting threads in this forum concerning the strongly debated issue of firearm authenticity. Looks like this topic has caused lots of problems. Being so new here, I hope that nobody minds if I make my own (hopefully!) objective comments:

I can't state strongly enough that this issue is not inclusive to this forum. Or this type of German collectable. Authenticating the various models of German WW2 weapons such as pistols, rifles, submachine guns and the powerful squad level machine guns is something that has brought about very hotly debated episodes in ALL the various collector markets. I can't emphasis this enough. To be quite blunt, there is a lot of money at stake here. Many people say that money is the root of all evil; in this case its a prime example.

Lets be honest, there are a lot of fakes out there. In his book, “Hitler’s Garands”, Darren Weaver devotes an entire chapter to spotting G/K43 fakes. Not only that, in the various other chapters he gives notes on spotting fake individual components for this collectable rifle (like bogus ZF4 sniper scopes). The market is full of counterfeit G43s it would seem. And anyone who has a G43 for sale will expect you to drop down a lot of money for it, whether they know it’s a fake or not. And as many of you are surely aware of, many neo-Nazi groups in the USA routinely counterfeit Third Reich items to scam people and make some good money.

Weaver notes that it is a very few dishonest dealers who taint the entire G43 market. I’m sure this is the case with German vintage pistols. As some of you might know from my initial posts, I enjoyed collecting a few K98 rifles before I stumbled upon the DWM Luger I purchased at a pawnshop. Even in the “low end” market of bolt-action rifles, (about 12 million K98k rifles were manufactured during WW2) there have in recent years been cases of outright fraud concerning even these items. Particularly the snipers, which can sell for thousands.

It has gotten to the point were I am truly souring on the German collectable market. I doubt I will ever buy another Luger pistol again. This may sound like sacrilege to members of this forum, but it is simply not worth it overall. I have now entered a stage in my life were I am simply happy dragging around my beat up old 1944 K98 shooter rifle through the woods, and shooting at tin cans with it. Isn’t that the point of becoming a collector of anything in the first place, to have fun?

-Curt Jensen

Edward Tinker · 07-06-2002, 01:31 AM

I worry also, but don't think I will go deep into the collector area, but if I drop a substantial amount of money, I want to pick brains before I give up that much money.

But, yes, the fun must be there Curt, or why do it?

Bud · 07-06-2002, 06:04 AM

The problem, I believe, has arisen from inflated specualtive values placed on collectibles for the purpose of investing in "firearms futures", by people just interested in making not just a great profit, but an immense profit that can be the subject of folk tales and urban legends(example, some feller bought a $200 luger and resold it for $50k, that kind of legend or notoriety).
There have even been infomercials on investing in collectible market goods, when the economy sours.
I know of a dealer right now that has a recent import G or K 43, AC 44, import marked, mismatch, with repaired stock, and good plus bore, for $1550, and I expect it will continue to stay there in that shop, until they sell it on one of the auction sites all hyped up as a rare German collectible, and they might score somewhere around $1200 to $1400 by someone gullible. I sure wouldn't pay that amount, for that one or any of them, cause they were not that great of a rifle anyway.
As far as lugers go, I aint paying over inflated prices either.

Marvin · 07-06-2002, 07:57 AM

I have sort of stayed out of this topic of authenticity of Lugers, and what dealers are honest/dishonest, etc., but I think this is a good time to make my statement.

In regards to a fake, refurbished and sold as original, enhanced pistols, are a fact of life! They are here and the only thing we can do is LEARN to spot them. Buy books and read what stamps are supposed to be there and their location. Look at the fit, finish, markings on a known, authentic Luger and remember what they lool like. Ask questions to the seller, get a written statement from him if it is a top dollar pistol that it is authentic and what the dealer will do if it is found to be not as respresented. But, you also must remember that the actual buying and money exchange is done of your own free will. Yes, you will make mistakes and buy something sometime that is not correct; but that is a learning process which I am sure most Luger collectors have done in the past (all may not admit it, <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> )

If you have a bad experience with a dealer, don't deal with him anymore. There are dealers who I like and trust, there are dealers I like and don't trust, and there are dealers I don't like but do trust. I buy some from the big dealers and I have gotten pistols that are not correct. When this happens, they have been totally upfront and taken care of me. I prefer to buy in person from gun shows and shops so I can inspect the pistol first hand and then make my decision to buy or not.

When a deal goes bad and a person gets "taken" it is a huge disappointment and if the seller knew the pistol was not correct he should be punished, but most often he is not. This leads to a potential collector to stop collecting and enjoying these fine weapons.

In Col. Whittington's books, he states that if you stay with the common pistols, you usually will have a nice Luger, reasonable price, the value will always go up, and you will enjoy collecting. When you start looking at the high dollar or rare Lugers, this is where you need an experienced person with you to help decide if it is correct or not. As with anything, learn the subject first.

Marvin

Pete Ebbink · 07-06-2002, 12:02 PM

Absolutely, well spoken !!! Marvin !!! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

Karl · 07-06-2002, 04:48 PM

Heydrich,

I have avoided the whole authenticity issue by sticking with "shooters." First of all, it would be a bad idea for me to own a desirable collector piece because sooner or later I would have to shoot it. I am keenly fond of history and attracted to lugers of historical interest, but it matters little to me if something like the extractor or firing pin doesn't match. In a way, that mis-matched part or minor blemish is a blessing: it makes the gun affordable and makes it unlikely that someone has carefully doctored the gun in an effort to mislead. Besides, I take it from your closing remarks that you are basically a shooter as well.

Regarding "I doubt I will ever buy another Luger pistol again," it's probably too late. Once you've got the bug, lugers are like potato chips, you can't have just one. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] KFS

Heydrich · 07-06-2002, 05:54 PM

Karl:

Yes, you are right. What I like most about these collectables is shooting them. I also like the roar of the 7.92mm round that a K98 fires. Compared to it, my old Ruger 10/22 seems like a puny little popgun that I can hold up with two fingers. I’m going to go to Bi-Mart soon and get a box of some commercial Remington 9mm ammo I think. And give the old DWM a go. One thing that I’ve grown to dislike about shooting though is the breakdown and cleaning afterwards. Even if I fire just one round, I always completely break down a rifle and clean it down to every last part and screw. My hands end up hurting for the next day or so from the gun solvent and oil that soak them for hours.

Bud · 07-06-2002, 10:15 PM

One thing I forgot to share, concerning the book "Hitlers' Garands", is that I might have bought the book had the title not been so absurd. Imagine if there was a book about lugers called "Hitlers' Colt .45's". I gues what is next is a book on SVT 40 Tokarev rifles known as "Stalins' Garands", or how about a whole series of books so titles.
Just like I like shooter lugers like others here, and have two already, same goes possibly for a G or K 43, which is, I am hoping maybe, someday, to buy some of the critical parts like complete receiver, reproduction stock, and everything else to make it complete, with a new barrel(somehow), and that would suit me just fine, more so than having an all original matching. In fact, I wouldn't mind having one that was tweaked for more reliability, since I have read that sometimes 43's shoot out springs or extractors.

Big Norm · 07-07-2002, 02:44 AM

Its bad enough to fake Lugers because they are so expensive. But its not just guns, its everything collectible.
In Michigan, if you are a successful deer hunter, you can take the deer to a Department of Natural Resources office and they will give you a successful deer hunting patch for free. These patches are dated and change designs every year. Over the years these patches have become collectible. Now I read in the newspaper that someone is making fake patches. Some of the more rare mint ones go for $300. Why is it that someone has to figure out a way to cheat even when the dollars are small?
But I am still trying to figure out why a guy with an authentic .45 cal Luger worth about $1 mil would allow another guy to make exact copies and ruin the value of the original. Something is lost on me here. Maybe I am just too honest.
Big Norm

bradsimpson · 07-12-2002, 04:44 PM

Curt,
There are certainly a lot of fake or restored Lugers out there. But they can only fool people who don't know the difference. This forum is a great vehicle for helping collectors learn what to look for.

After years of buying Lugers for our list, I've seen about every type of fake Luger out there. Many of the inexpensive Lugers are only a few markings away from being expensive variations. This is where the temptation starts.

A great example of this is on page 179 of Randall Gibson's "Krieghoff Parabellum". There you will see the only example known of a 1941 Krieghoff. The gun is dated 1941 on the chamber and appears to be mint condition.

But there is a big problem. The gun had already been photographed when it was a 1940 Model. You can see it on page 175 of the same book. The serial number is the same (you can even see that the numbers are aligned the same.) But then it was just a common "1940", and only about 80% blue.

And remember, this was over 20 years ago. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />

The more collectors are educated about this type of activity, the less likely they are to become a victim. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Pete Ebbink · 07-12-2002, 07:46 PM

Hello Brad, and my belated welcome to this Forum !
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

I understand Mr. Gibson is one of the premier HK luger experts.

If these two "same" guns went by him, undetected, when his book was being assembled;...how they heck do we beginners have a chance at staying out of trouble ?

We have all talked, here on the Forum, about a luger gun serial number registry...but I do not think there was enough support to get it launched...

p.s. John D. and others on the Forum are looking for some co-moderators for a new Forum section that might be started called the "Authenticity" section...

You sound like just the righ guy to volunteer...any interest ? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

Roadkill · 07-12-2002, 07:48 PM

Mr Simpson,
If this question is inappropriate please disregard, but as a dealer with international business involvement do you keep a sn'd list of Lugers known by your business to be
suspect or fraudlent? If not how do you keep up with what is and what isn't?

RK

bradsimpson · 07-12-2002, 10:57 PM

Pete & RK,
Thank you for your responses. I'm not sure that I am the right person to be involved in an "authenticity board." If I were a collector, and one of the many dealers like myself claimed to be the expert on authenticating Lugers, I would question his motives.

As a dealer, I would only look as though I'm trying to trash my competition.

That position would require someone with no monetary interest in the Luger business, and therefore no apparent agenda. In other words, I don't qualify.

As more details about the Luger are discovered, there will be more ways to objectively determine authenticity. Maybe a serial number registry is a step towards this? I know that we don't keep serial numbers of the bad guns we see, we just learn what to look for.

Almost every fake luger out there started as something else, usually a very common donor gun. There are almost always ways to tell that the gun used to be something else (serial numbers and/or proofs removed, serial numbers and/or proofs added, barrels replaced, chamber marks or dates changed/added, refinishing, etc. If you X-ray, magna-flux, magnify, etc. you can usually see what has been done yourself. Then you don't have to trust someone like me telling you whether its good or not.

The 1941 Krieghoff just had the chamber date removed & changed and then it was refinished. I'm sure the owner assured Mr. Gibson that it was 100% original.

Heydrich · 07-12-2002, 11:59 PM

[The 1941 Krieghoff just had the chamber date removed & changed and then it was refinished. I'm sure the owner assured Mr. Gibson that it was 100% original.]

Brad, this is just the type of thing that has turned me off huge on the German collectable market. Bleach. Finding any sort of real item at a fair price is becoming next to impossible. And like I said in my opening post, you will be expected to drop down a lot of money no matter if they know it’s a fake or not.

Let me point out that these remarks are not directed at you as a dealer personally. Saying that, what has really started to honk me off in the past few years is some of the things that I have seen at gun shows, and heard about. You see, most, if not all of the people who are really taken hard are enthusiastic beginners who come into this wide-eyed and eager. More than once, at a gun show I’ve seen 18-19 year old kids who are ready to drop down large amounts of their own money, or their parent’s money, on anything that looks close to real. Such as a fake WW2 German rifle or pistol. They do not peruse this or other Web sites, or study collectable books like you, and like the many other wise collectors on this site do. One can just imagine their reaction when they find out they’ve been cheated huge.

You can just say, hey, let the buyer beware, right? We were all tenderfoot kids once, right? Hogwash. Not only is this sort of uncaring attitude morally and ethically wrong, it gives the whole industry a bad name. With all the anti-Second Amendment people out there today, the last thing we need is dissention among the law-abiding gun owners of this great country.

bradsimpson · 07-13-2002, 01:43 AM

Heydrich,
Thank you for the response. Fakes are an issue in every field of collecting. I have written a couple of books about pool cues (yes the right ones can sell for $100K+). As soon as the prices of the old cues escalated above what they could be reproduced for, fakes started to appear.

I would like to see a forensic means of authenticating collectibles. I can spot fake Lugers & fake cues, but why should anyone trust me or anyone else for that matter? Buyers need a means of authenticating items without having to rely on trusting the sellers. There has to be a scientific way of telling whether something was done 100 years ago or yesterday.

There are forensic ways to tell if stamps/numbers/proofs have been removed. There are plenty of fake Lugers, 98's, .45's, S.A.A's, etc. out there that can be identified with scientific testing. You would think that someone would have gone to jail for fraud by now. But I don't know of anyone who has.

Collectors who get burned are usually too embarrassed to do anything. They should be able to alert as many people as they can. And there needs to be legal action against the fakers.

I hope this forum can help educate new collectors about the danger of fakes. The more people know, the less likely they will become victims. Knowledge is power.

wterrell · 07-13-2002, 11:57 AM

[quote] You would think that someone would have gone to jail for fraud by now. <hr></blockquote>

A $1,000,000 price tag may just do the trick!

max2cam · 07-14-2002, 09:30 PM

After reading about the problems associated with big buck "fakes" in the Luger marketplace (and being a low buck sort of guy anyway), I think that I'll stick with my VOPO Luger and Yugo crested Kar.98ks.

They might not rate real as a collector's wet dream, but they are 99 percent of that collector's item and they are authentic.

07-06-2002, 01:27 AM	#1
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Authenticity Issues I have been reading some of the older posting threads in this forum concerning the strongly debated issue of firearm authenticity. Looks like this topic has caused lots of problems. Being so new here, I hope that nobody minds if I make my own (hopefully!) objective comments: I can't state strongly enough that this issue is not inclusive to this forum. Or this type of German collectable. Authenticating the various models of German WW2 weapons such as pistols, rifles, submachine guns and the powerful squad level machine guns is something that has brought about very hotly debated episodes in ALL the various collector markets. I can't emphasis this enough. To be quite blunt, there is a lot of money at stake here. Many people say that money is the root of all evil; in this case its a prime example. Lets be honest, there are a lot of fakes out there. In his book, “Hitler’s Garands”, Darren Weaver devotes an entire chapter to spotting G/K43 fakes. Not only that, in the various other chapters he gives notes on spotting fake individual components for this collectable rifle (like bogus ZF4 sniper scopes). The market is full of counterfeit G43s it would seem. And anyone who has a G43 for sale will expect you to drop down a lot of money for it, whether they know it’s a fake or not. And as many of you are surely aware of, many neo-Nazi groups in the USA routinely counterfeit Third Reich items to scam people and make some good money. Weaver notes that it is a very few dishonest dealers who taint the entire G43 market. I’m sure this is the case with German vintage pistols. As some of you might know from my initial posts, I enjoyed collecting a few K98 rifles before I stumbled upon the DWM Luger I purchased at a pawnshop. Even in the “low end” market of bolt-action rifles, (about 12 million K98k rifles were manufactured during WW2) there have in recent years been cases of outright fraud concerning even these items. Particularly the snipers, which can sell for thousands. It has gotten to the point were I am truly souring on the German collectable market. I doubt I will ever buy another Luger pistol again. This may sound like sacrilege to members of this forum, but it is simply not worth it overall. I have now entered a stage in my life were I am simply happy dragging around my beat up old 1944 K98 shooter rifle through the woods, and shooting at tin cans with it. Isn’t that the point of becoming a collector of anything in the first place, to have fun? -Curt Jensen

07-06-2002, 01:31 AM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,992 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	I worry also, but don't think I will go deep into the collector area, but if I drop a substantial amount of money, I want to pick brains before I give up that much money. But, yes, the fun must be there Curt, or why do it? __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-13-2002, 11:57 AM	#16
wterrell User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,096 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	[quote] You would think that someone would have gone to jail for fraud by now. <hr></blockquote> A $1,000,000 price tag may just do the trick! __________________ Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo, wes --------------------

07-06-2002, 06:04 AM	#3
Bud User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The problem, I believe, has arisen from inflated specualtive values placed on collectibles for the purpose of investing in "firearms futures", by people just interested in making not just a great profit, but an immense profit that can be the subject of folk tales and urban legends(example, some feller bought a $200 luger and resold it for $50k, that kind of legend or notoriety). There have even been infomercials on investing in collectible market goods, when the economy sours. I know of a dealer right now that has a recent import G or K 43, AC 44, import marked, mismatch, with repaired stock, and good plus bore, for $1550, and I expect it will continue to stay there in that shop, until they sell it on one of the auction sites all hyped up as a rare German collectible, and they might score somewhere around $1200 to $1400 by someone gullible. I sure wouldn't pay that amount, for that one or any of them, cause they were not that great of a rifle anyway. As far as lugers go, I aint paying over inflated prices either.

07-06-2002, 07:57 AM	#4
Marvin User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Upstate S.C. Posts: 1,132 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have sort of stayed out of this topic of authenticity of Lugers, and what dealers are honest/dishonest, etc., but I think this is a good time to make my statement. In regards to a fake, refurbished and sold as original, enhanced pistols, are a fact of life! They are here and the only thing we can do is LEARN to spot them. Buy books and read what stamps are supposed to be there and their location. Look at the fit, finish, markings on a known, authentic Luger and remember what they lool like. Ask questions to the seller, get a written statement from him if it is a top dollar pistol that it is authentic and what the dealer will do if it is found to be not as respresented. But, you also must remember that the actual buying and money exchange is done of your own free will. Yes, you will make mistakes and buy something sometime that is not correct; but that is a learning process which I am sure most Luger collectors have done in the past (all may not admit it, <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> ) If you have a bad experience with a dealer, don't deal with him anymore. There are dealers who I like and trust, there are dealers I like and don't trust, and there are dealers I don't like but do trust. I buy some from the big dealers and I have gotten pistols that are not correct. When this happens, they have been totally upfront and taken care of me. I prefer to buy in person from gun shows and shops so I can inspect the pistol first hand and then make my decision to buy or not. When a deal goes bad and a person gets "taken" it is a huge disappointment and if the seller knew the pistol was not correct he should be punished, but most often he is not. This leads to a potential collector to stop collecting and enjoying these fine weapons. In Col. Whittington's books, he states that if you stay with the common pistols, you usually will have a nice Luger, reasonable price, the value will always go up, and you will enjoy collecting. When you start looking at the high dollar or rare Lugers, this is where you need an experienced person with you to help decide if it is correct or not. As with anything, learn the subject first. Marvin

07-06-2002, 12:02 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Absolutely, well spoken !!! Marvin !!! <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

07-06-2002, 04:48 PM	#6
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 515 Thanks: 0 Thanked 252 Times in 112 Posts	Heydrich, I have avoided the whole authenticity issue by sticking with "shooters." First of all, it would be a bad idea for me to own a desirable collector piece because sooner or later I would have to shoot it. I am keenly fond of history and attracted to lugers of historical interest, but it matters little to me if something like the extractor or firing pin doesn't match. In a way, that mis-matched part or minor blemish is a blessing: it makes the gun affordable and makes it unlikely that someone has carefully doctored the gun in an effort to mislead. Besides, I take it from your closing remarks that you are basically a shooter as well. Regarding "I doubt I will ever buy another Luger pistol again," it's probably too late. Once you've got the bug, lugers are like potato chips, you can't have just one. [img]biggrin.gif[/img] KFS

07-06-2002, 05:54 PM	#7
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Karl: Yes, you are right. What I like most about these collectables is shooting them. I also like the roar of the 7.92mm round that a K98 fires. Compared to it, my old Ruger 10/22 seems like a puny little popgun that I can hold up with two fingers. I’m going to go to Bi-Mart soon and get a box of some commercial Remington 9mm ammo I think. And give the old DWM a go. One thing that I’ve grown to dislike about shooting though is the breakdown and cleaning afterwards. Even if I fire just one round, I always completely break down a rifle and clean it down to every last part and screw. My hands end up hurting for the next day or so from the gun solvent and oil that soak them for hours.

07-06-2002, 10:15 PM	#8
Bud User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 19 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	One thing I forgot to share, concerning the book "Hitlers' Garands", is that I might have bought the book had the title not been so absurd. Imagine if there was a book about lugers called "Hitlers' Colt .45's". I gues what is next is a book on SVT 40 Tokarev rifles known as "Stalins' Garands", or how about a whole series of books so titles. Just like I like shooter lugers like others here, and have two already, same goes possibly for a G or K 43, which is, I am hoping maybe, someday, to buy some of the critical parts like complete receiver, reproduction stock, and everything else to make it complete, with a new barrel(somehow), and that would suit me just fine, more so than having an all original matching. In fact, I wouldn't mind having one that was tweaked for more reliability, since I have read that sometimes 43's shoot out springs or extractors.

07-07-2002, 02:44 AM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Its bad enough to fake Lugers because they are so expensive. But its not just guns, its everything collectible. In Michigan, if you are a successful deer hunter, you can take the deer to a Department of Natural Resources office and they will give you a successful deer hunting patch for free. These patches are dated and change designs every year. Over the years these patches have become collectible. Now I read in the newspaper that someone is making fake patches. Some of the more rare mint ones go for $300. Why is it that someone has to figure out a way to cheat even when the dollars are small? But I am still trying to figure out why a guy with an authentic .45 cal Luger worth about $1 mil would allow another guy to make exact copies and ruin the value of the original. Something is lost on me here. Maybe I am just too honest. Big Norm

07-12-2002, 04:44 PM	#10
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Curt, There are certainly a lot of fake or restored Lugers out there. But they can only fool people who don't know the difference. This forum is a great vehicle for helping collectors learn what to look for. After years of buying Lugers for our list, I've seen about every type of fake Luger out there. Many of the inexpensive Lugers are only a few markings away from being expensive variations. This is where the temptation starts. A great example of this is on page 179 of Randall Gibson's "Krieghoff Parabellum". There you will see the only example known of a 1941 Krieghoff. The gun is dated 1941 on the chamber and appears to be mint condition. But there is a big problem. The gun had already been photographed when it was a 1940 Model. You can see it on page 175 of the same book. The serial number is the same (you can even see that the numbers are aligned the same.) But then it was just a common "1940", and only about 80% blue. And remember, this was over 20 years ago. <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> The more collectors are educated about this type of activity, the less likely they are to become a victim. [img]smile.gif[/img]

07-12-2002, 07:46 PM	#11
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Brad, and my belated welcome to this Forum ! <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> I understand Mr. Gibson is one of the premier HK luger experts. If these two "same" guns went by him, undetected, when his book was being assembled;...how they heck do we beginners have a chance at staying out of trouble ? We have all talked, here on the Forum, about a luger gun serial number registry...but I do not think there was enough support to get it launched... p.s. John D. and others on the Forum are looking for some co-moderators for a new Forum section that might be started called the "Authenticity" section... You sound like just the righ guy to volunteer...any interest ? <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" />

07-12-2002, 07:48 PM	#12
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Mr Simpson, If this question is inappropriate please disregard, but as a dealer with international business involvement do you keep a sn'd list of Lugers known by your business to be suspect or fraudlent? If not how do you keep up with what is and what isn't? RK

07-12-2002, 10:57 PM	#13
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Pete & RK, Thank you for your responses. I'm not sure that I am the right person to be involved in an "authenticity board." If I were a collector, and one of the many dealers like myself claimed to be the expert on authenticating Lugers, I would question his motives. As a dealer, I would only look as though I'm trying to trash my competition. That position would require someone with no monetary interest in the Luger business, and therefore no apparent agenda. In other words, I don't qualify. As more details about the Luger are discovered, there will be more ways to objectively determine authenticity. Maybe a serial number registry is a step towards this? I know that we don't keep serial numbers of the bad guns we see, we just learn what to look for. Almost every fake luger out there started as something else, usually a very common donor gun. There are almost always ways to tell that the gun used to be something else (serial numbers and/or proofs removed, serial numbers and/or proofs added, barrels replaced, chamber marks or dates changed/added, refinishing, etc. If you X-ray, magna-flux, magnify, etc. you can usually see what has been done yourself. Then you don't have to trust someone like me telling you whether its good or not. The 1941 Krieghoff just had the chamber date removed & changed and then it was refinished. I'm sure the owner assured Mr. Gibson that it was 100% original.

07-12-2002, 11:59 PM	#14
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	[The 1941 Krieghoff just had the chamber date removed & changed and then it was refinished. I'm sure the owner assured Mr. Gibson that it was 100% original.] Brad, this is just the type of thing that has turned me off huge on the German collectable market. Bleach. Finding any sort of real item at a fair price is becoming next to impossible. And like I said in my opening post, you will be expected to drop down a lot of money no matter if they know it’s a fake or not. Let me point out that these remarks are not directed at you as a dealer personally. Saying that, what has really started to honk me off in the past few years is some of the things that I have seen at gun shows, and heard about. You see, most, if not all of the people who are really taken hard are enthusiastic beginners who come into this wide-eyed and eager. More than once, at a gun show I’ve seen 18-19 year old kids who are ready to drop down large amounts of their own money, or their parent’s money, on anything that looks close to real. Such as a fake WW2 German rifle or pistol. They do not peruse this or other Web sites, or study collectable books like you, and like the many other wise collectors on this site do. One can just imagine their reaction when they find out they’ve been cheated huge. You can just say, hey, let the buyer beware, right? We were all tenderfoot kids once, right? Hogwash. Not only is this sort of uncaring attitude morally and ethically wrong, it gives the whole industry a bad name. With all the anti-Second Amendment people out there today, the last thing we need is dissention among the law-abiding gun owners of this great country.

07-13-2002, 01:43 AM	#15
bradsimpson User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Galesburg, IL Posts: 135 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 9 Posts	Heydrich, Thank you for the response. Fakes are an issue in every field of collecting. I have written a couple of books about pool cues (yes the right ones can sell for $100K+). As soon as the prices of the old cues escalated above what they could be reproduced for, fakes started to appear. I would like to see a forensic means of authenticating collectibles. I can spot fake Lugers & fake cues, but why should anyone trust me or anyone else for that matter? Buyers need a means of authenticating items without having to rely on trusting the sellers. There has to be a scientific way of telling whether something was done 100 years ago or yesterday. There are forensic ways to tell if stamps/numbers/proofs have been removed. There are plenty of fake Lugers, 98's, .45's, S.A.A's, etc. out there that can be identified with scientific testing. You would think that someone would have gone to jail for fraud by now. But I don't know of anyone who has. Collectors who get burned are usually too embarrassed to do anything. They should be able to alert as many people as they can. And there needs to be legal action against the fakers. I hope this forum can help educate new collectors about the danger of fakes. The more people know, the less likely they will become victims. Knowledge is power.

07-14-2002, 09:30 PM	#17
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	After reading about the problems associated with big buck "fakes" in the Luger marketplace (and being a low buck sort of guy anyway), I think that I'll stick with my VOPO Luger and Yugo crested Kar.98ks. They might not rate real as a collector's wet dream, but they are 99 percent of that collector's item and they are authentic.