Hello, new member here, got a question

HuntMaster · 05-09-2009, 10:32 PM

Good evening everyone,
I just found this forum while searching for some help on my Luger.
I recently acquired a 1914 DWM commercial in a trade. Beautiful pistol, all #'s match, no pitting or rust, but possibly a reblue( no straw on parts).
I love the pistol, have always wanted one since I was a kid ( I'm now 43), but there is a problem with this one:
- I thought I was getting a 9mm in the trade, but it turned out to be the .30 - no problem. The problem started when I bought a box of ammo that was 71 grain reman stuff. When the gun fired, it would not throw the toggle back far enough to eject the brass and reload another round.
Someone said this pistol was designed to operate on 93 gr stuff , so I figured the 71's did not create enough chamber pressure to operate the action.
O.K. new problem- I found some 93gr Fiocchi to try. The OAL is not as long as the reloads I tried. When I fire the pistol, there is sufficient power to cycle the action, however, after ejecting the spent case, the new round gets stuck at the top of the barrel , and the action will not close. It looks as if the shorter length is causing the round to "kick up" out of the mag and hang on the opening of the barrel before the action is finished cycling.
The only other thought I have is maybe the magazine is causing the jam. It is not the original mag, and appears to be aftermarket. Do you guys have a recommendation for a good mag?
What are your thoughts on the problem? All comments are welcome.
Please forgive me for being long- winded on my 1st posting. I hope to be on this site a while- I am also a member in good standing on OpticsTalk.com and AR15.com.
Thanks in advance, Guys.
HM

wlyon · 05-09-2009, 10:55 PM

HM
My guess is the magazine. Suggest trying another one. It seems like most of the feed problems are caused by the mag. Suggest you contact lugerdoc on this forum. He sells mags, is a luger gunsmith and a nice guy to talk to. Bill

alvin · 05-09-2009, 11:14 PM

1914 DWM Commercial in .30 caliber..... even if there is such an animal, it must be super rare. Could it be a 1914 military with replaced .30 cal barrel.

If it's a military 9m/m gun with replaced .30 cal barrel, and assume no other major change on the gun (except the finish), would .30 ammo work on it?

Vlim · 05-10-2009, 07:39 AM

Normally speaking, the Fiocchi shouldn't give you problems. I tried it in several .30 luger pistols with good results.

The problem is determining who did the rebarreling (or rechambering/relining) and why. It was popular in the 'old days' to convert pistols to ammunition that was cheap and abundant (like .30 luger once was). Any under barrel markings on the pistol?

HuntMaster · 05-10-2009, 10:22 AM

Thanks for the replies.
The only markings on the barrel are as follows and in order:
B o 3 1
1801 ( matching ser #)
a ( small cursive)
388( or 333 or 383 or 888 or some variation of )

I might add that the cursive a is also found on the frame under the barrel.

those last 3 digits are very light markings and thus I am not entirely sure of their accuracy.
I am now curious about the .30 Luger chambering. I guess I was under the impression that this was a common chambering for a commercial 1914 DWM. The ser# on the barrel matches - as do all #'s on this gun. Would someone go through with the trouble of faking the # ? It looks to be of the same stamp type as the ser# on the rest of the gun. I have tried to post pics for you all, but have been unsuccessful at this point. Could email them to you.
HM

unspellable · 05-10-2009, 10:41 AM

First, the Luger is recoil operated, pressure has nothing to do with it. As a loose rule of thumb a load with a heavier bullet will produce more recoil.

The 9 mm and 7.65 mm Lugers had two different recoil springs. Unfortunately, shooter grade lugers tend to have out of spec springs because they have been doctored by the unknowing according to one or another urban legend. It’s been my experience that if I open up six shooter grade Lugers, I will find seven different recoil springs, none of which match spec. The first question is, do you have the correct spring?

The Fiocchi stuff is seriously under loaded. It’s quite possible that the breech block is not going all the way back and is picking up the next round by dragging on the case or groove rather than getting behind it and pushing as it is supposed to do.

The magazine is always a suspect. Vintage magazines have “history”. They are often not up to par. Look at how thin the lips are and consider what happens if you drop one on its head.

Modern 9 mm ammo is loaded shorter than the original and this can be a problem. I’ve not hear of it as a problem with the 7.65. The bottle necked case tends to feed better. I used to shoot semi-wadcutters and full wadcutters from a 7.65 Luger.

sheepherder · 05-10-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unspellable

The 9 mm and 7.65 mm Lugers had two different recoil springs.

Interesting. Do you know offhand the "poundage" of the two OEM springs???

Wolff offers only one set of springs, of different "poundages". Sarco/GPC [Numrich] do not differentiate between the two calibers, as far as recoil springs are concerned.

I have an assortment of Luger recoil springs, culled over the years. I have a spring gauge which I could set up to measure them all, but without a baseline the results would not have much value.

lugerholsterrepair · 05-10-2009, 11:57 AM

HM..Is there a date over the chamber?

Jerry Burney

Ron Smith · 05-10-2009, 12:13 PM

"The only markings on the barrel are as follows and in order:
B o 3 1
1801 ( matching ser #)
a ( small cursive)
388( or 333 or 383 or 888 or some variation of"

It sounds like a 1914 with a BÃ?Â¶hler barrel in 9mm (8,83 bore gauge), that has been relined to 7.65 mm /.30 Luger.

Ron

HuntMaster · 05-10-2009, 12:55 PM

Since I truly don't know anything about Lugers, here's the dumb question: is the Bohler barrel a "factory " barrel? I ask this because of the matching #.

The date 1914 is on the shroud over the chamber.

Ron Smith · 05-10-2009, 01:00 PM

Yes, many 1913 and 1914 Military Lugers are found with Bohler made barrels.

HuntMaster · 05-10-2009, 01:05 PM

Thank you kindly, Mr. Smith.
Also thanks to everyone participating in this thread so far.
As stated above, I have always loved/wanted one of these fine firearms. I am a little disappointed that I am having trouble with it, but to date, I have approximately $570 in trade value in this pistol, so I don't think I got rooked. I just think it will take a little tinkering to get it functioning properly.
I do wish it was chambered in 9mm though for the availability in ammo. Otherwise, I wouldn't have a problem with it being in .30 Luger.

Ron Smith · 05-10-2009, 01:12 PM

Any Luger for $570 isn't a bad deal.

Ron

Vlim · 05-10-2009, 07:58 PM

I go with Ron's assessment.

Boehler was (and still is) an Austrian steel supplier who had a subsidiary in Germany, with a head office in Berlin in the early 1900s. The main share holder of the German branch was none other than Isidor Loewe, who also had the Ludwig Loewe & Cie under his umbrella, including daughter companies DWM and Mauser. Members of the Boehler family retook control of the company after the death of Loewe. This change of ownership roughly corresponds with the disappearance of the Boehler markings on DWM barrels, it's not unlikely that the outbreak of the war was also a reason to obscure the source of barrel material a bit more.

alvin · 05-10-2009, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

This change of ownership roughly corresponds with the disappearance of the Boehler markings on DWM barrels, it's not unlikely that the outbreak of the war was also a reason to obscure the source of barrel material a bit more.

Vlim - I am confused. Were ALL DWM barrels made by Boehler, and some had Boehler markings, and some didn't?

Vlim · 05-10-2009, 09:04 PM

Alvin,

To my knowledge just about every DWM barrel was made from Boehler steel. Boehler went on to supply barrel steel to Mauser afterwards. Since much of the documentation (especially from the DWM era) has been lost, it's impossible to say for certain that Boehler was the only (exclusive) supplier, though.

The Boehler marking disappeared, but they remained a supplier, no doubt about that. Boehler is still mentioned as supplier to Mauser in the 1945 CIOS intelligence report.

unspellable · 05-11-2009, 12:39 AM

The Wolff springs are not to spec. They don't even look like the originals. Wolff only specifies the loaded force, they give no other specs. To specify the spring you need loaded force, preload force, unloaded length, number of turns, etc. The preload is critical in the Luger. I'd get an in spec spring from Luger Doc before I went to Wolff. But first figure out what you actually have in the pistol. "Tired" springs are an urban myth. A spring does not weaken until just before complete failure.

I have the spring specs, but I've recently moved and stuff is still in boxes. One of the other people here should have the complete specs. I did have a setup to measure Luger spring forces and ran measurements on the motley assortment I had in my shooters. I have one with an unsafe recoil spring. Aside from not slowing down the cannon enough and allowing it to batter against the frame it does not reliably close the action all the way. This is a BIG safety hazard as the disconnector will allow the trigger to connect with the breech block slightly back and the toggle not locked. The consequences of firing in this state do not bear thinking about. I've fired a few empty primed cases this way to prove the point.

Sieger · 05-11-2009, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by unspellable

but I've recently moved and stuff is still in boxes.

Noel:

I've been trying to contact you at your old work e-mail address.

Please MP or e-mail me with your new one.

Sieger

Aaron · 05-11-2009, 08:43 PM

Getting Lugers to shoot properly is like tinkering with auto electrical systems made by Lucas.

Sieger · 05-11-2009, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron

Getting Lugers to shoot properly is like tinkering with auto electrical systems made by Lucas.

Aaron:

Not really. There are really just a few simple principles to follow:

1) Springs, springs, springs!!! If they are not in spec, forget about it!!!!!

2) OAL, OAL, OAL!!! Violate this little rule and your Luger will never shoot reliably!!!!

3) Powder charge, powder type. With very little variation, when a Luger is tuned properly, they are both reliable and extremely accurate!!!!

Sieger

05-09-2009, 10:32 PM	#1
HuntMaster User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Hello, new member here, got a question Good evening everyone, I just found this forum while searching for some help on my Luger. I recently acquired a 1914 DWM commercial in a trade. Beautiful pistol, all #'s match, no pitting or rust, but possibly a reblue( no straw on parts). I love the pistol, have always wanted one since I was a kid ( I'm now 43), but there is a problem with this one: - I thought I was getting a 9mm in the trade, but it turned out to be the .30 - no problem. The problem started when I bought a box of ammo that was 71 grain reman stuff. When the gun fired, it would not throw the toggle back far enough to eject the brass and reload another round. Someone said this pistol was designed to operate on 93 gr stuff , so I figured the 71's did not create enough chamber pressure to operate the action. O.K. new problem- I found some 93gr Fiocchi to try. The OAL is not as long as the reloads I tried. When I fire the pistol, there is sufficient power to cycle the action, however, after ejecting the spent case, the new round gets stuck at the top of the barrel , and the action will not close. It looks as if the shorter length is causing the round to "kick up" out of the mag and hang on the opening of the barrel before the action is finished cycling. The only other thought I have is maybe the magazine is causing the jam. It is not the original mag, and appears to be aftermarket. Do you guys have a recommendation for a good mag? What are your thoughts on the problem? All comments are welcome. Please forgive me for being long- winded on my 1st posting. I hope to be on this site a while- I am also a member in good standing on OpticsTalk.com and AR15.com. Thanks in advance, Guys. HM

05-09-2009, 10:55 PM	#2
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,635 Thanks: 3,174 Thanked 2,556 Times in 954 Posts	HM My guess is the magazine. Suggest trying another one. It seems like most of the feed problems are caused by the mag. Suggest you contact lugerdoc on this forum. He sells mags, is a luger gunsmith and a nice guy to talk to. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

05-10-2009, 10:22 AM	#5
HuntMaster User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks for the replies. The only markings on the barrel are as follows and in order: B o 3 1 1801 ( matching ser #) a ( small cursive) 388( or 333 or 383 or 888 or some variation of ) I might add that the cursive a is also found on the frame under the barrel. those last 3 digits are very light markings and thus I am not entirely sure of their accuracy. I am now curious about the .30 Luger chambering. I guess I was under the impression that this was a common chambering for a commercial 1914 DWM. The ser# on the barrel matches - as do all #'s on this gun. Would someone go through with the trouble of faking the # ? It looks to be of the same stamp type as the ser# on the rest of the gun. I have tried to post pics for you all, but have been unsuccessful at this point. Could email them to you. HM Last edited by HuntMaster; 05-10-2009 at 11:38 AM. Reason: can see # better under new lighting

05-10-2009, 11:57 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	HM..Is there a date over the chamber? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

05-10-2009, 12:13 PM	#9
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	"The only markings on the barrel are as follows and in order: B o 3 1 1801 ( matching ser #) a ( small cursive) 388( or 333 or 383 or 888 or some variation of" It sounds like a 1914 with a BÃ?Â¶hler barrel in 9mm (8,83 bore gauge), that has been relined to 7.65 mm /.30 Luger. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-09-2009, 11:14 PM	#3
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	1914 DWM Commercial in .30 caliber..... even if there is such an animal, it must be super rare. Could it be a 1914 military with replaced .30 cal barrel. If it's a military 9m/m gun with replaced .30 cal barrel, and assume no other major change on the gun (except the finish), would .30 ammo work on it?

05-10-2009, 07:39 AM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Normally speaking, the Fiocchi shouldn't give you problems. I tried it in several .30 luger pistols with good results. The problem is determining who did the rebarreling (or rechambering/relining) and why. It was popular in the 'old days' to convert pistols to ammunition that was cheap and abundant (like .30 luger once was). Any under barrel markings on the pistol?

05-10-2009, 10:41 AM	#6
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	First, the Luger is recoil operated, pressure has nothing to do with it. As a loose rule of thumb a load with a heavier bullet will produce more recoil. The 9 mm and 7.65 mm Lugers had two different recoil springs. Unfortunately, shooter grade lugers tend to have out of spec springs because they have been doctored by the unknowing according to one or another urban legend. It’s been my experience that if I open up six shooter grade Lugers, I will find seven different recoil springs, none of which match spec. The first question is, do you have the correct spring? The Fiocchi stuff is seriously under loaded. It’s quite possible that the breech block is not going all the way back and is picking up the next round by dragging on the case or groove rather than getting behind it and pushing as it is supposed to do. The magazine is always a suspect. Vintage magazines have “history”. They are often not up to par. Look at how thin the lips are and consider what happens if you drop one on its head. Modern 9 mm ammo is loaded shorter than the original and this can be a problem. I’ve not hear of it as a problem with the 7.65. The bottle necked case tends to feed better. I used to shoot semi-wadcutters and full wadcutters from a 7.65 Luger.

05-10-2009, 12:55 PM	#10
HuntMaster User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Since I truly don't know anything about Lugers, here's the dumb question: is the Bohler barrel a "factory " barrel? I ask this because of the matching #. The date 1914 is on the shroud over the chamber.

05-10-2009, 01:00 PM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Yes, many 1913 and 1914 Military Lugers are found with Bohler made barrels. __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-10-2009, 01:05 PM	#12
HuntMaster User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 69 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you kindly, Mr. Smith. Also thanks to everyone participating in this thread so far. As stated above, I have always loved/wanted one of these fine firearms. I am a little disappointed that I am having trouble with it, but to date, I have approximately $570 in trade value in this pistol, so I don't think I got rooked. I just think it will take a little tinkering to get it functioning properly. I do wish it was chambered in 9mm though for the availability in ammo. Otherwise, I wouldn't have a problem with it being in .30 Luger.

05-10-2009, 01:12 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Any Luger for $570 isn't a bad deal. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

05-10-2009, 07:58 PM	#14
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	I go with Ron's assessment. Boehler was (and still is) an Austrian steel supplier who had a subsidiary in Germany, with a head office in Berlin in the early 1900s. The main share holder of the German branch was none other than Isidor Loewe, who also had the Ludwig Loewe & Cie under his umbrella, including daughter companies DWM and Mauser. Members of the Boehler family retook control of the company after the death of Loewe. This change of ownership roughly corresponds with the disappearance of the Boehler markings on DWM barrels, it's not unlikely that the outbreak of the war was also a reason to obscure the source of barrel material a bit more.

05-10-2009, 09:04 PM	#16
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Alvin, To my knowledge just about every DWM barrel was made from Boehler steel. Boehler went on to supply barrel steel to Mauser afterwards. Since much of the documentation (especially from the DWM era) has been lost, it's impossible to say for certain that Boehler was the only (exclusive) supplier, though. The Boehler marking disappeared, but they remained a supplier, no doubt about that. Boehler is still mentioned as supplier to Mauser in the 1945 CIOS intelligence report.

05-11-2009, 12:39 AM	#17
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	The Wolff springs are not to spec. They don't even look like the originals. Wolff only specifies the loaded force, they give no other specs. To specify the spring you need loaded force, preload force, unloaded length, number of turns, etc. The preload is critical in the Luger. I'd get an in spec spring from Luger Doc before I went to Wolff. But first figure out what you actually have in the pistol. "Tired" springs are an urban myth. A spring does not weaken until just before complete failure. I have the spring specs, but I've recently moved and stuff is still in boxes. One of the other people here should have the complete specs. I did have a setup to measure Luger spring forces and ran measurements on the motley assortment I had in my shooters. I have one with an unsafe recoil spring. Aside from not slowing down the cannon enough and allowing it to batter against the frame it does not reliably close the action all the way. This is a BIG safety hazard as the disconnector will allow the trigger to connect with the breech block slightly back and the toggle not locked. The consequences of firing in this state do not bear thinking about. I've fired a few empty primed cases this way to prove the point.

05-11-2009, 08:43 PM	#19
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Getting Lugers to shoot properly is like tinkering with auto electrical systems made by Lucas.