Blue Dot load?

MJ · 08-15-2007, 12:06 AM

Years ago I read an artical about the loading for the P08. I think it was G&A but maybe not. It went on about presure curves and and energy to for clean operation in the P08. I saved the magazine and have spent the last two weeks going through my collection of G&A and ARM and can't find it. Anyone else remember this artical?

Cheers
MJ

tenbears · 08-15-2007, 11:44 PM

I have used Blue Dot powder extensively for .357 loads for years. I just dont see it being that good for a 9mm load. I dont think it burns all that clean either.

JD · 08-16-2007, 12:57 PM

Blue Dot is my favorite powder for the 9mm. It burns fairly clean, provides excellent accuracy, and you can't double charge a case. It does have a bit more muzzle flash than other powders I've tried and doesn't meter quite as well as ball powders, but its' benefits far out weigh the increased muzzle flash. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mmP ammo with Blue Dot, and haven't found anything that works as well for me over the years.... But that's just me, and everyone has thier own preferences........

Anyway, the two loads I use the most are:

115 grain Remington JHP with 7.5 Grains of Blue Dot loaded to an overall length of 1.120" . Velocity runs about 1,150 depending on a number of factors. (I also use 8.0 grains of Blue Dot with the same bullet and oal when I want a bit more velocity. 8.0 grains gives around 1,250 fps.)

124 grain Remington JHP with 7.5 Grains of Blue Dot loaded to an overall length of 1.120". I don't recall the velocity exactly (I'm at work and my reloading data is at home...), but I believe it is about 1,100 fps.

Both of these loads shoot quite well in my guns, and function my lugers 100% . Neither load is a maximum load. Please note that these loads are loaded to a bit longer overall length than many loads that are shown in reloading manuals. I have grown to favor the 124 grain load, but some of my guns shoot better with the 115 grain load. The 124 grain load shoots a bit higher than the 115, so you can change bullet weight to try match your guns sights.

I hope this is useful information.

JD

tenbears · 08-16-2007, 11:53 PM

Well Blue Dot is more versatile than I thought. I must admit I have never reloaded a 9mm. Due to all the cheap 9mm ammo out their.

Sieger · 08-17-2007, 03:48 AM

Dear MJ:

To each his own, but I prefer the medium burning powders in the 9mm.

As far as accuracy, IMR SR 4756 and Power Pistol win hands down, and I've been loading for the Luger for almost 30 years. Blue Dot will make the pistol function, but the above two powders will make it shoot accurately.

How accurately? Five or six out of eight touching at 25 meters.

Sieger

Johnny C. Kitchens · 08-30-2007, 02:50 AM

I remember reading an article on Blue Dot and its use in the 9mm. The writer refered to it as the "Champagne of 9mm Gunpowders". It is very versatile and I have come across a number of very accurate combinations with it. It also is outstanding in the 10mm Auto and .357 Magnum, as well as reduced loads for many rifle cartridges. Definitely worth having in the supply rack...

Sieger · 08-30-2007, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny C. Kitchens
I remember reading an article on Blue Dot and its use in the 9mm. The writer refered to it as the "Champagne of 9mm Gunpowders". It is very versatile and I have come across a number of very accurate combinations with it. It also is outstanding in the 10mm Auto and .357 Magnum, as well as reduced loads for many rifle cartridges. Definitely worth having in the supply rack...

Hi:

Please share your accurate loads with us.

Sieger

Johnny C. Kitchens · 09-19-2007, 02:36 AM

I have several loads that were great, but three stood out over time. I've really grown fond of Remington's 102gr Golden Saber, made for the .380 ACP. With 10.4 grains of Blue Dot, Federals GM100M primer and a 1.065" OAL, my byf 42 shoots great!!! I also get great results with Winchester 115 grain HP loaded over 9.6 and 9.8 grains of Blue Dot, a Winchester WSP primer and an OAL 1.12". The 9.6 especially seems to perform well...

Sieger · 09-19-2007, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny C. Kitchens
I have several loads that were great, but three stood out over time. I've really grown fond of Remington's 102gr Golden Saber, made for the .380 ACP. With 10.4 grains of Blue Dot, Federals GM100M primer and a 1.065" OAL, my byf 42 shoots great!!! I also get great results with Winchester 115 grain HP loaded over 9.6 and 9.8 grains of Blue Dot, a Winchester WSP primer and an OAL 1.12". The 9.6 especially seems to perform well...

Johnny:

Both of your loads are way over maximum per several manuals I have checked!!!

100 gr. maximum is listed at 9.2 grs in the Hornady Manual

115 gr. maximum is listed at 8.9 grs in the Hornady Manual

Frankly, I'm surprised you and your Luger are still with us.

Sieger

JD · 09-19-2007, 12:59 PM

I agree with Sieger, your loads are over max, and the 115 grain load is WAY over max!! I've loaded 8.8 grains of Blue Dot with a Hornady 115 grain bullet, and it produced about 1,350 fps out of a 4" barrel. It was a safe load, but rather abusive to the gun, and currently the max I load is 8.0 grains with a 115 grain bullet which doesn't beat the gun up as much and still produces 1,250 fps out of a 4" barrel. Even your 100 grain load, at that relatively short overall loaded length is over max and over reasonable pressure limits. I've loaded 100 grain bullets with heavy charges of Blue Dot, but only when loaded to a much longer overall length, which reduces pressures, and only to be fired in very strong, modern handguns. I wouldn't use the loads you listed in any handgun, let alone a vintage luger....

Johnny C. Kitchens · 09-24-2007, 10:40 PM

Hornady finally added Blue Dot. It is not listed in Volume 2 or 4. You are certainly limiting yourself staying with one manual. I use several and compare. Hornady is keeping the pressures well below 29,000 to protect people, mainly themselves. I've yet to even get to the top loads listed in other sources, and I'm showing no pressure signs. I chronographed my loads, measured at seven feet from the muzzle. The 10.2gr of Blue Dot pushing the 102gr Golden Saber produced an average velocity of 1323fps for 10 shots. As you can see that is quite a bit different from the 1350fps you got with a heavier bullet and less powder. I think it would be interesting to see why...

Sieger · 09-24-2007, 11:02 PM

Johnny:

I referenced the 1990 addition of Loadbooks for the 9mm Luger

Your loads are well over the recomendations of:

Hornady
Nosler
Sierra
Speer
Lyman

Please reference your loading manual.

Sieger

Johnny C. Kitchens · 09-25-2007, 12:42 AM

I'm holding a Speer book. Here are two loads for Blue Dot with 100gr bullets. 10.2 and 9.2 grains. They list a 8.8gr load for their 125gr bullet. They list a max pressure 35,700cup which they stayed below, and an OAL with the 100gr bullet of 1.080", and 1.100" OAL for the 125gr bullet...

Sieger · 09-25-2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny C. Kitchens
I'm holding a Speer book. Here are two loads for Blue Dot with 100gr bullets. 10.2 and 9.2 grains. They list a 8.8gr load for their 125gr bullet. They list a max pressure 35,700cup which they stayed below, and an OAL with the 100gr bullet of 1.080", and 1.100" OAL for the 125gr bullet...

Johnny:

From the Speer section of the 1990 Loadbook:

100 gr., Blue Dot, Max Load 9.3 grs at 1,285 fps

115 gr., Blue Dot, Max Load 8.9 grs at 1,249 fps

125 gr., Blue Dot, Max Load 8.3 grs at 1,259 fps

What year was your manual published?

Sieger

Sieger · 09-25-2007, 02:52 PM

Rick W:

The manufacturers make a great effort to keep their commercial powders within published specifications on a continuous basis, year to year. Doing otherwise would be commercial suicide for them. Without this consistency, why bother publishing loading data for their products at all?

As to firearm to firearm variables, a little knowledge and common sense is required, and good judgement is to be exercised. I have assembled seemingly perfectly good lower-end loads that have pierced primers before in High Powered rifles, letting gas escape through the action. Try a face full of that once or twice and you will have a new appreciation for conservative, consistent, reloading procedures.

In the end, however, to each his or her own.

Sieger

Sieger · 09-28-2007, 01:57 PM

Dear Tac:

With properly assembled loads and a good Luger, this is not only possible, but highly repeatable.

Some say the 9mm isn't accurate. Well, maybe not with ammo so hot that it flattens primers, etc.

Sieger

Sieger · 09-28-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
This repeatable performance is fired one-handed, unsupported, at 25m, right?

Six shots touching is a group of around 5/8", shot at 25m. This, I assure you, is well-nigh impossible to repeat by the best shots in the world using dedicated target pistols in the usual low-recoiling calibre of .32S&W wad-cutter, let alone a 9mmP FMJ.

Or am I missing something important here?

tac, puzzled.

Tac:

No, its a two hand hold over a sand bag.

Best effort to date is 7 touching at 25 meters

Sieger

Sieger · 09-28-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tacfoley
Ah, right....

tac

Dear Tac

If you really want to read about how Americans can shoot, I suggest reading the account of what happened to the Commanding General of the British Army invading Washington D.C. and the Port of Baltimore, Maryland during, what we call, the War of 1812.

The General was mortally wounded by one shot at 600 yards by an American Sniper, and this, with a smooth bore flintlock rifle.

You Brits may be pretty good with a shotgun, but Americans have, traditionally, been outstanding marksman with the rifle.

Sieger

Heinz · 09-29-2007, 10:00 AM

Oh Steiger, you are treading on thin ice here.
The British prowess with the rifle is not to be trifled with, check both the international match records or the German experience against the .303 Enfield in the in the hands of Tommies in Flanders, 1914.

Also "smooth bore flintlock rifle" is a contradiction in terms although the expression "smooth rifle" is sometimes used for a rifle stocked and sighted smoothbore. The likelyhood is high that the gun in question was a .75 calibre (or larger) rifle bored gun designed for long range shooting with 48 inch and longer barrels and rifle sights and often wall mounted. Such a rifle is illustrated in George Shumway's Longrifles of North Carolina. That piece as a 90 calibre 7 groove barrel 54.7 inches long and weighs 30 pounds. It also has a swivel mount. Of interest is that rifle is now in the Tower of London collection.

I will jump back now as I 'spect that Tac or Ig will defend themselves.

TzDreamer · 09-29-2007, 03:51 PM

Now... now guys play nice!

this "cross Atlantic" one up man ship does no one any good!

Yes, we Americans are a bit "quick on the trigger" We had to be to survive!

And we don't have thousands of years of history so we tend to make the most of what we have!

So get along, please!

Hay if you want to pick on someone, pick on me! Here I'll give you the ammunition; I am a Democrat the loves his right to own and carry a fire arm!

Have fun with that! and yes "smooth bore Rifle" is an oxymoron like "Military Intelligence' OOps more ammo!

08-15-2007, 12:06 AM	#1
MJ User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: USA Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Blue Dot load? Years ago I read an artical about the loading for the P08. I think it was G&A but maybe not. It went on about presure curves and and energy to for clean operation in the P08. I saved the magazine and have spent the last two weeks going through my collection of G&A and ARM and can't find it. Anyone else remember this artical? Cheers MJ

08-30-2007, 02:50 AM	#6
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I remember reading an article on Blue Dot and its use in the 9mm. The writer refered to it as the "Champagne of 9mm Gunpowders". It is very versatile and I have come across a number of very accurate combinations with it. It also is outstanding in the 10mm Auto and .357 Magnum, as well as reduced loads for many rifle cartridges. Definitely worth having in the supply rack... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

09-19-2007, 02:36 AM	#8
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I have several loads that were great, but three stood out over time. I've really grown fond of Remington's 102gr Golden Saber, made for the .380 ACP. With 10.4 grains of Blue Dot, Federals GM100M primer and a 1.065" OAL, my byf 42 shoots great!!! I also get great results with Winchester 115 grain HP loaded over 9.6 and 9.8 grains of Blue Dot, a Winchester WSP primer and an OAL 1.12". The 9.6 especially seems to perform well... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

09-24-2007, 10:40 PM	#11
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	Hornady finally added Blue Dot. It is not listed in Volume 2 or 4. You are certainly limiting yourself staying with one manual. I use several and compare. Hornady is keeping the pressures well below 29,000 to protect people, mainly themselves. I've yet to even get to the top loads listed in other sources, and I'm showing no pressure signs. I chronographed my loads, measured at seven feet from the muzzle. The 10.2gr of Blue Dot pushing the 102gr Golden Saber produced an average velocity of 1323fps for 10 shots. As you can see that is quite a bit different from the 1350fps you got with a heavier bullet and less powder. I think it would be interesting to see why... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

09-25-2007, 12:42 AM	#13
Johnny C. Kitchens User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arlington, Texas Posts: 518 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 8 Posts	I'm holding a Speer book. Here are two loads for Blue Dot with 100gr bullets. 10.2 and 9.2 grains. They list a 8.8gr load for their 125gr bullet. They list a max pressure 35,700cup which they stayed below, and an OAL with the 100gr bullet of 1.080", and 1.100" OAL for the 125gr bullet... __________________ Johnny C. Kitchens

08-15-2007, 11:44 PM	#2
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	I have used Blue Dot powder extensively for .357 loads for years. I just dont see it being that good for a 9mm load. I dont think it burns all that clean either.

08-16-2007, 12:57 PM	#3
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	Blue Dot is my favorite powder for the 9mm. It burns fairly clean, provides excellent accuracy, and you can't double charge a case. It does have a bit more muzzle flash than other powders I've tried and doesn't meter quite as well as ball powders, but its' benefits far out weigh the increased muzzle flash. I have loaded tens of thousands of rounds of 9mmP ammo with Blue Dot, and haven't found anything that works as well for me over the years.... But that's just me, and everyone has thier own preferences........ Anyway, the two loads I use the most are: 115 grain Remington JHP with 7.5 Grains of Blue Dot loaded to an overall length of 1.120" . Velocity runs about 1,150 depending on a number of factors. (I also use 8.0 grains of Blue Dot with the same bullet and oal when I want a bit more velocity. 8.0 grains gives around 1,250 fps.) 124 grain Remington JHP with 7.5 Grains of Blue Dot loaded to an overall length of 1.120". I don't recall the velocity exactly (I'm at work and my reloading data is at home...), but I believe it is about 1,100 fps. Both of these loads shoot quite well in my guns, and function my lugers 100% . Neither load is a maximum load. Please note that these loads are loaded to a bit longer overall length than many loads that are shown in reloading manuals. I have grown to favor the 124 grain load, but some of my guns shoot better with the 115 grain load. The 124 grain load shoots a bit higher than the 115, so you can change bullet weight to try match your guns sights. I hope this is useful information. JD

08-16-2007, 11:53 PM	#4
tenbears User Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 370 Thanks: 3 Thanked 26 Times in 15 Posts	Well Blue Dot is more versatile than I thought. I must admit I have never reloaded a 9mm. Due to all the cheap 9mm ammo out their.

08-17-2007, 03:48 AM	#5
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Dear MJ: To each his own, but I prefer the medium burning powders in the 9mm. As far as accuracy, IMR SR 4756 and Power Pistol win hands down, and I've been loading for the Luger for almost 30 years. Blue Dot will make the pistol function, but the above two powders will make it shoot accurately. How accurately? Five or six out of eight touching at 25 meters. Sieger

09-19-2007, 12:59 PM	#10
JD User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Western Washington Posts: 107 Thanks: 58 Thanked 22 Times in 17 Posts	I agree with Sieger, your loads are over max, and the 115 grain load is WAY over max!! I've loaded 8.8 grains of Blue Dot with a Hornady 115 grain bullet, and it produced about 1,350 fps out of a 4" barrel. It was a safe load, but rather abusive to the gun, and currently the max I load is 8.0 grains with a 115 grain bullet which doesn't beat the gun up as much and still produces 1,250 fps out of a 4" barrel. Even your 100 grain load, at that relatively short overall loaded length is over max and over reasonable pressure limits. I've loaded 100 grain bullets with heavy charges of Blue Dot, but only when loaded to a much longer overall length, which reduces pressures, and only to be fired in very strong, modern handguns. I wouldn't use the loads you listed in any handgun, let alone a vintage luger....

09-24-2007, 11:02 PM	#12
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Johnny: I referenced the 1990 addition of Loadbooks for the 9mm Luger Your loads are well over the recomendations of: Hornady Nosler Sierra Speer Lyman Please reference your loading manual. Sieger

09-25-2007, 02:52 PM	#15
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Rick W: The manufacturers make a great effort to keep their commercial powders within published specifications on a continuous basis, year to year. Doing otherwise would be commercial suicide for them. Without this consistency, why bother publishing loading data for their products at all? As to firearm to firearm variables, a little knowledge and common sense is required, and good judgement is to be exercised. I have assembled seemingly perfectly good lower-end loads that have pierced primers before in High Powered rifles, letting gas escape through the action. Try a face full of that once or twice and you will have a new appreciation for conservative, consistent, reloading procedures. In the end, however, to each his or her own. Sieger

09-28-2007, 01:57 PM	#16
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Dear Tac: With properly assembled loads and a good Luger, this is not only possible, but highly repeatable. Some say the 9mm isn't accurate. Well, maybe not with ammo so hot that it flattens primers, etc. Sieger

09-29-2007, 10:00 AM	#19
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	Oh Steiger, you are treading on thin ice here. The British prowess with the rifle is not to be trifled with, check both the international match records or the German experience against the .303 Enfield in the in the hands of Tommies in Flanders, 1914. Also "smooth bore flintlock rifle" is a contradiction in terms although the expression "smooth rifle" is sometimes used for a rifle stocked and sighted smoothbore. The likelyhood is high that the gun in question was a .75 calibre (or larger) rifle bored gun designed for long range shooting with 48 inch and longer barrels and rifle sights and often wall mounted. Such a rifle is illustrated in George Shumway's Longrifles of North Carolina. That piece as a 90 calibre 7 groove barrel 54.7 inches long and weighs 30 pounds. It also has a swivel mount. Of interest is that rifle is now in the Tower of London collection. I will jump back now as I 'spect that Tac or Ig will defend themselves.

09-29-2007, 03:51 PM	#20
TzDreamer User Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Wichita Falls Texas USA Posts: 28 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Now... now guys play nice! this "cross Atlantic" one up man ship does no one any good! Yes, we Americans are a bit "quick on the trigger" We had to be to survive! And we don't have thousands of years of history so we tend to make the most of what we have! So get along, please! Hay if you want to pick on someone, pick on me! Here I'll give you the ammunition; I am a Democrat the loves his right to own and carry a fire arm! Have fun with that! and yes "smooth bore Rifle" is an oxymoron like "Military Intelligence' OOps more ammo!