1914 dwm

[FNorm]

Refinished ????


ttp://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132383828

[Ron Smith]

A rethink....

Let me say that after looking very closely at his photos. It's very possible that it has been refinished. Whoever did it was very good. The one thing that I don't trust is the halo on the barrel serial number. It looks as if it has been bead blasted on. This is one of the latest tricks of the fabricators.

Ron

[FNorm]

Thanks. I can't say why but something tells me it isn't right. Gut feeling

FN

[Ron Smith]

Just too pristine and the straw looks too bright.

[sheepherder]

There does not appear to be *any* buffing (I wish I could find this bluer, if it is indeed re-blued!)...Halo on barrel serial, but not on grip frame serial???

[Ron Wood]

Frame serials do not have halos.

[George Anderson]

Looks good to me.

[CHARLESL]

Have to agree with Mr. Smith . Those halos just do not look right .
There is no variation in their size or shape. Even the letter mark is
the same measured circular pattern. Just a humble opinion

Chuck L

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

Frame serials do not have halos.

But barrel serials do??? Why is that, Ron; do you know???

Not trying to be confrontational; just wondering if it is maybe because it is different steel; or maybe different heat treat; or maybe because one is a curved surface & the other flat...whatever...

I thirst for knowledge...

[DavidJayUden]

Does anyone else share my concern with the halos on the barrel #'s. Seems a bit overdone, maybe airblasted?
DJU

[George Anderson]

In addition to the barrel, the front toggle and extractor on DWM's are also stamped through the blue as well as proofs on frame and barrel. If you look closely at those ares in the photos of the subject pistol you can see distinct halos but not as obvious as the barrel serial number. I would attribute the difference to the curviture of the barrel and the steel.

[Ron Wood]

Rich,
The frame serial number is stamped after finish sanding but before bluing. The barrel serial number is stamped after bluing or “through the blue”. The upsetting of the metal around the barrel stamp results in a change in the top layer of oxidation (the “rust” of the bluing process). The microcrystalline oxidation flakes off over time resulting in the halo effect.

David,
The halos do look quite uniform and raise the suspicion that they are the result of micro-blasting. However, looking at a magnified image, the indentations on the halos, particularly on the left side of the “9”,”1” and “4” and the “tail” on the “b” would seem to be correct. If someone can control micro-blasting to that level of detail, there is no hope of detecting forgeries.

[Ron Smith]

George and Ron,

Do the halos look okay to you? They look blotchy and don't really follow the outline of the numbers. They just look too abrupt and obvious.

It's hard to be certain with his photos. If it's not refinished, it sure has been someplace where it wasn't handled much. Very little, to no high edge or muzzle wear.

Photo: The 4 looks like it's engraved, rather than stamped.

Ron

[Ron Wood]

It looks OK to me. I think the halos follow the outline of the numbers (see my previous post). The "4" is stamped, look at the ends of the lines and the lack of chisel marks.

[FNorm]

Thank you all! This had been extremely educational!!! Trying to figure my reaction, I think it is the straw looks too good. I might drive down and handle this one.

FN

[USMC_Spike]

If it is not bead blasted, may I suggest another theory?

Suppose someone is going to refin a weapon, and you are
going to polish it. I'm new at this, so here goes.

We know we want to preserve the numbers.

So, why not just cover them with something, at first I was
going to say wax, but why? Why not put a small dab of epoxy
on them, to protect them.

Then when you do your polish work, or do your sand/bead/glass
blasting at the rest of it, the numbers and stamping are protected.

Heck even when you go to blue it those numbers are protected.

Yep, just like the tempering on a samuri sword...when blueing
if it is hot dipped (is that the same as hot salt blue) those covered parts would be tempered less, or blued less, or
heated less, until finished. Then when cleaned up for
sale there you have it.

Rons, George, others is this to what you were referring?

That might be refinished parts but that wouldn't be counterfit parts.

This leads me to another question, too.

Suppose I want to go shoot my Luger and I don't want to
ruin the vintage parts that may break, Extractor, ejector,
hold open, firing pin, etc... Getting these parts may require
some custom fitting, finish, and bluing. Since these parts
are all going to be fitted to my Luger, why wouldn't I want
them stamped with my Lugers SN number on it as well?

Is there anything wrong with that? It is kind of like some of
the Chevy and other restoration people where the restoration
parts are correctly numbered to the vehicle and year of production.

I can almost see it now, getting the nod then snubbed by the
it's not all original crowd. Do you have these type folk in the
Luger collector community?

Just wondering.

[Ice]

I think that the problem of numbering real/replica parts for your own use in your own gun is not the issue as much as what happens to the gun after it leaves your possession. Lets say that you do the renumber thing and get killed in an accident. Then your wife or somebody unknowingly sells that gun as a genuine matching numbered piece. Then the new buyer proudly displays his prize here on this forum where the pros immediately discern that the pistol has been fooled with. They tell him of the problem and he freaks out because he can't get his money back on a fake. Somebody is going to get hurt.

My .02

Charlie

[George Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ron Smith

George and Ron,

Do the halos look okay to you? They look blotchy and don't really follow the outline of the numbers. They just look too abrupt and obvious.

It's hard to be certain with his photos. If it's not refinished, it sure has been someplace where it wasn't handled much. Very little, to no high edge or muzzle wear.

Photo: The 4 looks like it's engraved, rather than stamped.

Ron

Ron, I have seen lots of early militaries where the barrel halos are like an aurora borealis I simply think it is a matter of steel and tool difference. Gun looks 100% to me.

I believe that we all sometimes work too hard to find something wrong where all is fine. With imperial DWM's I always concentrate on the areas I referenced above. You might also look at the minimal albeit natural edgewear in some of the seller's closeup photos. I think it's just a damn fine original pistol.

Many collectors think that combat weapons should show wear and tear or abuse. The soldier in combat, past and present, takes care of his weapon. Abuse and wear occurs at the civilian level in a glove compartment, county dump, neglect or poor storage.

[DavidJayUden]

A very informative discussion.
DJU

[USMC_Spike]

Question,

Have ya'll picked up weapons where there is a halo around
the stamped numbers?

Is it easy seen etc. or is it one of those things that
you typically see when take a close up pic of it?

I'm new and don't mean to offend anyone by the
questions I'm asking, I know of no other way to learn.

Please don't think that because I'm wanting parts for
my luger, so I can shoot it and not worry if
pieces break, that I"ll ruin any value my piece has. I would
like it to be period correct, numbered, fitted, blued, and look as original as possible.

When I first got the luger I thought it was a forgery because
of the differences in bluing on the weapaon. Then I learned
of the salt and pepper blueing and that some of it wasn't blue
at all, but brown. The parts that had this are the hold open
and the extractor.

Any way I've learned a lot in the short time I've been here and
hope to learn more.

Thanks for your patience,

Spike