Peening on toggle question

maxmanta · 04-24-2005, 11:20 PM

My pet Luger has begun to develop a slight amount of peening on the toggle. It is hard to describe and I do not have a digital camera handy, but I will try my best.

It is occurring right at top of the hinge of the bolt carrier and the first part of the "leg." It is being caused by leg impacting with the bolt carrier. I don't know if this is caused by shooting it (I have 200 rounds so far through her) or by my hinging the joint upwards when I insert the toggle assembly into the upper receiver.

Is this sort of wear normal? I'm still a relatively new Luger owner and I still have alot to learn.

Thanks!

Roadkill · 05-17-2005, 04:47 PM

Comments too confusing. Had to go.

unspellable · 05-18-2005, 08:25 AM

I will differ from Roadkill in saying that the recoil spring (NOT the main spring, that's the little spring inside the breech block that drives the firing pin!) strength does not have much bearing in how hard the toggles hit the ramps. The spring strength becomes significant as the togggle assembly approachs the rear limit of travel.

But it's a little unclear to me where your peening is located. Sounds like your peening might not be in that area but at the hinge between the breech block and the first toggle leg. Sounds like there is a slight misfit of some sort, but it would be hard to say just where wthout more info or seeing the pistol.

I'd be cautious about replacing the recoil spring. The first step with the recoil spring is to determine exactly what you do have. I've seen a lot of shooter grade Lugers screwed up by somebody playing games with the recoil spring. I think this is due to people trying to correct reliability problems that are actually caused by poor magazines and short OAL ammo.

If your peening is the normal peening caused by the toggles hitting the ramp, the only way to reduce it is to use a load with a smaller impulse.

Roadkill · 05-18-2005, 09:25 AM

Comments too confusing. Had to go.

unspellable · 05-18-2005, 01:58 PM

Now I'm confused. The mainspring is the small spring inside the breech block that drives the striker. Didn't sound like that had anything to do with the problem.

The recoil spring is the large spring inside the grip area that slows the action and returns it to battery.

Just exactly where is the peening we are talking about?

Roadkill · 05-18-2005, 02:35 PM

Comments too confusing. Had to go.

John Sabato · 05-18-2005, 02:36 PM

Maxmanta,

I strongly recommend that you cease shooting your Luger until the matter of peening of ANY part has beed diagnosed and the problem mitigated.

Please find a good digital camera and take good clear photos of the areas where you think the action is being peened by firing and post them here on the Lugerforum for evaluation. We will do the best we can to advise you on your problem (if a problem in fact exists). That's just one of the many reasons for the existence of this forum.

Welcome to the Lugerforum....

unspellable · 05-18-2005, 04:14 PM

Until maxmanta checks in again we are wandering in the murk as to what the problem is that started this thread.

As for the question of how hard the toggle knobs hit the ramps the main spring has no bearing.

The recoil spring does not do nearly as much as you might think to slow the upper by the time the toggles hit the ramps. On firing, the impulse results in a force in excess of 500 lbf tending to accelerate the upper to the rear. The recoil spring will require something like 30 to 36 lbf to fully compress it to its smallest length in the pistol with the toggle all the way back. The force required to compress it to the length it has with the pistol in battery is on the order of 10 to 15 lbf. With a force in excess of 500 lbf pushing the upper back, the recoil spring has very little influence. The velocity of the upper is almost entirely determined by the impulse of the load. (If one were designing a pistol, the mass of the upper would be a very important consideration.)

The recoil spring should bring the upper & toggle linkage very nearly to a stop by the time they reach the rear most limit. It can do this because it is acting over a much greater distance and time than is required for the toggles to reach the ramps. So the first requirement for the recoil spring is to slow the upper and toggles to nearly zero by the time they reach the rearmost position. The second requirement for the recoil spring is to reliably return the action to battery. In doing so the next cartridge is loaded and the main spring compressed. It is vital that the recoil spring bring the action fully to battery as it is possible for the pistol to be fired with the action almost closed but not yet locked. The consequnces of firing with the action not yet locked might be rather ugly.

The biggest single influence on how hard the toggle hit the ramps is the cartridge impulse. (Since the pistol is already designed, we can't change that.)

04-24-2005, 11:20 PM	#1
maxmanta User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: I'm in HELL! That's where I'm at! Posts: 14 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Peening on toggle question My pet Luger has begun to develop a slight amount of peening on the toggle. It is hard to describe and I do not have a digital camera handy, but I will try my best. It is occurring right at top of the hinge of the bolt carrier and the first part of the "leg." It is being caused by leg impacting with the bolt carrier. I don't know if this is caused by shooting it (I have 200 rounds so far through her) or by my hinging the joint upwards when I insert the toggle assembly into the upper receiver. Is this sort of wear normal? I'm still a relatively new Luger owner and I still have alot to learn. Thanks!

05-18-2005, 02:36 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Maxmanta, I strongly recommend that you cease shooting your Luger until the matter of peening of ANY part has beed diagnosed and the problem mitigated. Please find a good digital camera and take good clear photos of the areas where you think the action is being peened by firing and post them here on the Lugerforum for evaluation. We will do the best we can to advise you on your problem (if a problem in fact exists). That's just one of the many reasons for the existence of this forum. Welcome to the Lugerforum.... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

05-17-2005, 04:47 PM	#2
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Comments too confusing. Had to go.

05-18-2005, 08:25 AM	#3
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	I will differ from Roadkill in saying that the recoil spring (NOT the main spring, that's the little spring inside the breech block that drives the firing pin!) strength does not have much bearing in how hard the toggles hit the ramps. The spring strength becomes significant as the togggle assembly approachs the rear limit of travel. But it's a little unclear to me where your peening is located. Sounds like your peening might not be in that area but at the hinge between the breech block and the first toggle leg. Sounds like there is a slight misfit of some sort, but it would be hard to say just where wthout more info or seeing the pistol. I'd be cautious about replacing the recoil spring. The first step with the recoil spring is to determine exactly what you do have. I've seen a lot of shooter grade Lugers screwed up by somebody playing games with the recoil spring. I think this is due to people trying to correct reliability problems that are actually caused by poor magazines and short OAL ammo. If your peening is the normal peening caused by the toggles hitting the ramp, the only way to reduce it is to use a load with a smaller impulse.

05-18-2005, 09:25 AM	#4
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Comments too confusing. Had to go.

05-18-2005, 01:58 PM	#5
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Now I'm confused. The mainspring is the small spring inside the breech block that drives the striker. Didn't sound like that had anything to do with the problem. The recoil spring is the large spring inside the grip area that slows the action and returns it to battery. Just exactly where is the peening we are talking about?

05-18-2005, 02:35 PM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Comments too confusing. Had to go.

05-18-2005, 04:14 PM	#8
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	Until maxmanta checks in again we are wandering in the murk as to what the problem is that started this thread. As for the question of how hard the toggle knobs hit the ramps the main spring has no bearing. The recoil spring does not do nearly as much as you might think to slow the upper by the time the toggles hit the ramps. On firing, the impulse results in a force in excess of 500 lbf tending to accelerate the upper to the rear. The recoil spring will require something like 30 to 36 lbf to fully compress it to its smallest length in the pistol with the toggle all the way back. The force required to compress it to the length it has with the pistol in battery is on the order of 10 to 15 lbf. With a force in excess of 500 lbf pushing the upper back, the recoil spring has very little influence. The velocity of the upper is almost entirely determined by the impulse of the load. (If one were designing a pistol, the mass of the upper would be a very important consideration.) The recoil spring should bring the upper & toggle linkage very nearly to a stop by the time they reach the rear most limit. It can do this because it is acting over a much greater distance and time than is required for the toggles to reach the ramps. So the first requirement for the recoil spring is to slow the upper and toggles to nearly zero by the time they reach the rearmost position. The second requirement for the recoil spring is to reliably return the action to battery. In doing so the next cartridge is loaded and the main spring compressed. It is vital that the recoil spring bring the action fully to battery as it is possible for the pistol to be fired with the action almost closed but not yet locked. The consequnces of firing with the action not yet locked might be rather ugly. The biggest single influence on how hard the toggle hit the ramps is the cartridge impulse. (Since the pistol is already designed, we can't change that.)