studying books and forum pays off

jeb111 · 02-11-2019, 10:00 AM

Went to a gun show this weekend in MT. It was small but did find a table w/ about 12 Lugers. Seller gave me his card, Luger collector and WW1 WW2 militaria. Had a nice 1906 American Eagle with visible matching #'s incorrect mag, and a nice Erfurt w/ all matching #'s incl, mag. Question, is it unreasonable to ask to confirm matching #'s by disassembling pistol? Seller said it could "mess up gun". I had a pocket full of cash so I was a serious buyer. Main reason for post is that all the research from this forum and taking the advice of reading books really paid off as I knew what to look for and what I was looking at. Seller also had a Stoeger artillery but I didn't bother looking too closely at it as the seller didn't seem to keen on showing it.
Jim

mikedavid · 02-11-2019, 10:12 AM

By him not wanting to disassemble it so you can check to see if it's all matching, would send off a red flag to me!

Neil Young · 02-11-2019, 10:28 AM

If he was a Luger collector, he certainly knows how to disassemble the pistol and certainly knows that it will not "mess up the gun". So, in my book, the least he did was lie to you and probably tried to pass off a mismatched Luger for a collector price. Smile and walk away--no, run away.

DavidJayUden · 02-11-2019, 11:05 AM

I would think that an honest and serious seller would be willing to prove that it is truly matching in order to get a sale. How about, "Here's my money, show me it is matching in and out and you have a sale".
I know I'd be all over that one...
We just have to bear in mind all the non-serious tire kickers that are drawn to Lugers.
dju

wlyon · 02-11-2019, 12:10 PM

I will not let people at gun shows disassemble my guns. However if the person is serious I will take them apart and show him/her the numbers. If some one has a table of lugers and will not take them apart I would be very suspicious. Bill

Norme · 02-11-2019, 12:21 PM

Checking ALL the numbered parts on an Erfurt could be somewhat time consuming and I can understand why the seller might be reluctant to let you have at it if the show is busy. The following parts can be checked without disassembly:
Frame, Barrel, Receiver, Extractor, Middle toggle, Rear toggle, Side-plate, Sear bar, Safety bar, Take-down lever, Safety lever and Magazine.
Checking the following require disassembly:
"Hidden number" on side-plate, Trigger, Breech-block, Firing pin, Hold-open and both Grips.
Norm

Edward Tinker · 02-11-2019, 12:58 PM

A tear down will show everything but the grip markings. Not sure how an Erfurt or Simson would be an issue Norm?

Anyway, I have taken down many a luger to show somebody - but I sure prefer them to be more than a tire-kicker - After a few unsuccessful tire kickers, I usually say something like, and after talking a bit, "sure we can take it down and check everything".
.
.

BUT, the line about taking them apart and this could mess them up - I bet they are not HIS but someone else's.

lugerholsterrepair · 02-11-2019, 03:02 PM

I won't let just anyone monkey with any Luger I have OR hold a holster. Too many people are just ham fisted knuckleheads with no respect for antiques. You can't tell who is who. I found out years ago if you hand a holster to someone they immediately peer, poke and prod into it like they are looking for a hidden hundred dollar bill. No care taken. So I NEVER hand out a holster to anyone but a trusted collector.

But I agree with the above..the dealer should open up any specific pistol to get a look at the insides. "Here's my money, show me it is matching in and out and you have a sale". sure sounds reasonable to me! Especially on a $2,500+ purchase.

Edward Tinker · 02-11-2019, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugerholsterrepair

....

But I agree with the above..the dealer should open up any specific pistol to get a look at the insides. "Here's my money, show me it is matching in and out and you have a sale". sure sounds reasonable to me! Especially on a $2,500+ purchase.

Unless the 12 lugers were $499 each and then I would just pull out my credit card and say, do I get a discount for 12?

jcoe · 02-11-2019, 03:32 PM

Jim, there are a lot of “private sale” guys here in Montana, quite independent folks, who enjoy a relatively unencumbered sale in most of the state, and will not bother with paper work for an out-of-state buyer. As already noted, purchase of an unexamined P08 is like buying a pig in a poke.
BRegs, John

jeb111 · 02-12-2019, 10:04 AM

My main reason for the post was to point out how much researching books and this forum has been beneficial in looking to buy another Luger. I also think looking at lots Lugers in person really is where a guy learns. I was glad to encounter this seller, he was friendly and willing until it seemed that I was somewhat knowledgeable. I never asked or presumed if I could disassemble the pistols and never come off as a know it all but if a guy is asking IMO top dollar for as he said all matching # gun then prove it. I had money, told him I was a serious buyer and wasn't wasting time. He did say he would bring the pistol to an FFL holder in my hometown to sell to me so he offered options to me as an out of stater.

Jim

mrerick · 02-12-2019, 10:17 AM

If someone represents themselves as a "Luger Collector", it's reasonable to assume that they have the ability to disassemble field strip a Luger. To the extent possible, if I were selling a matching Luger, and a serious buyer was ready to make an offer that I would accept, I would be happy to sit down, take out a mat and show the buyer the matching parts I could access.

If a seller was unwilling to do that, I would simply offer them a price for the pistol as a "shooter", and tell them that if they wanted anywhere near to a "collectible Luger" price, I need to see the matching numbers and condition of internal parts.

if you are inexperienced at disassembling firearms, never ask a seller to let you take them apart.

Big Fish · 02-13-2019, 12:55 AM

Forum membership paid off for myself this weekend past, the seller was offering a friends luger.
I told everything I knew about it and showed him a few things and thanked him, went on my way.
A few hours later I bumped into him again but left with pistol in hand this time.

Moral, knowledge and honesty makes a grand deal for both parties. Cheers.

RDS · 04-06-2019, 10:20 PM

Another thing to consider. Even if the gun matches you have to check the condition of the firing pin. I worked in the industry back in the late 80s and most of the 90s.It was a time when WWII vets reached retirement age, were moving out of the greater NYC area and heading south. A good number of the guns that they brought into us to sell had broken off firing pin tips or no firing pin. The story was always the same. "I picked this up in the war but when the kids came along my wife made me remove the firing pin and I don't remember where I put it" or "I took the firing pin to work and ground the tip off to keep the wife happy. Sad but true.

gunnertwo · 04-07-2019, 01:49 AM

True story on the FP. One of my treasures is a S&W Victory that was given to me by a Naval Aviator that was on the USS Bunker Hill when hit by a Kamikaze. He had clipped off the tip of the FP due to the grand kids. A trip to my local 'smith fixed that. He also gave me the USN marked shoulder holster that had his name and squadron - VT-84.

G2

02-11-2019, 10:00 AM	#1
jeb111 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018 Location: wyoming Posts: 277 Thanks: 711 Thanked 331 Times in 133 Posts	studying books and forum pays off Went to a gun show this weekend in MT. It was small but did find a table w/ about 12 Lugers. Seller gave me his card, Luger collector and WW1 WW2 militaria. Had a nice 1906 American Eagle with visible matching #'s incorrect mag, and a nice Erfurt w/ all matching #'s incl, mag. Question, is it unreasonable to ask to confirm matching #'s by disassembling pistol? Seller said it could "mess up gun". I had a pocket full of cash so I was a serious buyer. Main reason for post is that all the research from this forum and taking the advice of reading books really paid off as I knew what to look for and what I was looking at. Seller also had a Stoeger artillery but I didn't bother looking too closely at it as the seller didn't seem to keen on showing it. Jim

02-11-2019, 10:12 AM	#2
mikedavid Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Lockport, Illinois Posts: 23 Thanks: 0 Thanked 11 Times in 4 Posts	By him not wanting to disassemble it so you can check to see if it's all matching, would send off a red flag to me! __________________ Mike D

02-11-2019, 10:28 AM	#3
Neil Young Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Scottsboro, Alabama Posts: 545 Thanks: 559 Thanked 442 Times in 168 Posts	If he was a Luger collector, he certainly knows how to disassemble the pistol and certainly knows that it will not "mess up the gun". So, in my book, the least he did was lie to you and probably tried to pass off a mismatched Luger for a collector price. Smile and walk away--no, run away. __________________ Neil The hurrier I go the behinder I get. Sometimes it takes me all day to get nothing done.

02-11-2019, 12:10 PM	#5
wlyon Lifer 2X Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: May 2005 Location: Somewhere in Montana Posts: 2,633 Thanks: 3,173 Thanked 2,555 Times in 954 Posts	I will not let people at gun shows disassemble my guns. However if the person is serious I will take them apart and show him/her the numbers. If some one has a table of lugers and will not take them apart I would be very suspicious. Bill __________________ Bill Lyon

02-11-2019, 03:02 PM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,926 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	I won't let just anyone monkey with any Luger I have OR hold a holster. Too many people are just ham fisted knuckleheads with no respect for antiques. You can't tell who is who. I found out years ago if you hand a holster to someone they immediately peer, poke and prod into it like they are looking for a hidden hundred dollar bill. No care taken. So I NEVER hand out a holster to anyone but a trusted collector. But I agree with the above..the dealer should open up any specific pistol to get a look at the insides. "Here's my money, show me it is matching in and out and you have a sale". sure sounds reasonable to me! Especially on a $2,500+ purchase. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

02-11-2019, 11:05 AM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I would think that an honest and serious seller would be willing to prove that it is truly matching in order to get a sale. How about, "Here's my money, show me it is matching in and out and you have a sale". I know I'd be all over that one... We just have to bear in mind all the non-serious tire kickers that are drawn to Lugers. dju

02-11-2019, 12:21 PM	#6
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Checking ALL the numbered parts on an Erfurt could be somewhat time consuming and I can understand why the seller might be reluctant to let you have at it if the show is busy. The following parts can be checked without disassembly: Frame, Barrel, Receiver, Extractor, Middle toggle, Rear toggle, Side-plate, Sear bar, Safety bar, Take-down lever, Safety lever and Magazine. Checking the following require disassembly: "Hidden number" on side-plate, Trigger, Breech-block, Firing pin, Hold-open and both Grips. Norm

02-11-2019, 12:58 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,929 Thanks: 2,029 Thanked 4,527 Times in 2,090 Posts	A tear down will show everything but the grip markings. Not sure how an Erfurt or Simson would be an issue Norm? Anyway, I have taken down many a luger to show somebody - but I sure prefer them to be more than a tire-kicker - After a few unsuccessful tire kickers, I usually say something like, and after talking a bit, "sure we can take it down and check everything". . . BUT, the line about taking them apart and this could mess them up - I bet they are not HIS but someone else's.

02-11-2019, 03:32 PM	#10
jcoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: mt Posts: 38 Thanks: 13 Thanked 31 Times in 9 Posts	Jim, there are a lot of “private sale” guys here in Montana, quite independent folks, who enjoy a relatively unencumbered sale in most of the state, and will not bother with paper work for an out-of-state buyer. As already noted, purchase of an unexamined P08 is like buying a pig in a poke. BRegs, John

02-12-2019, 10:04 AM	#11
jeb111 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: May 2018 Location: wyoming Posts: 277 Thanks: 711 Thanked 331 Times in 133 Posts	My main reason for the post was to point out how much researching books and this forum has been beneficial in looking to buy another Luger. I also think looking at lots Lugers in person really is where a guy learns. I was glad to encounter this seller, he was friendly and willing until it seemed that I was somewhat knowledgeable. I never asked or presumed if I could disassemble the pistols and never come off as a know it all but if a guy is asking IMO top dollar for as he said all matching # gun then prove it. I had money, told him I was a serious buyer and wasn't wasting time. He did say he would bring the pistol to an FFL holder in my hometown to sell to me so he offered options to me as an out of stater. Jim

02-12-2019, 10:17 AM	#12
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	If someone represents themselves as a "Luger Collector", it's reasonable to assume that they have the ability to disassemble field strip a Luger. To the extent possible, if I were selling a matching Luger, and a serious buyer was ready to make an offer that I would accept, I would be happy to sit down, take out a mat and show the buyer the matching parts I could access. If a seller was unwilling to do that, I would simply offer them a price for the pistol as a "shooter", and tell them that if they wanted anywhere near to a "collectible Luger" price, I need to see the matching numbers and condition of internal parts. if you are inexperienced at disassembling firearms, never ask a seller to let you take them apart. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

02-13-2019, 12:55 AM	#13
Big Fish User Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: Bucks Co. Pa. U.S.A. Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 3 Posts	Forum membership paid off for myself this weekend past, the seller was offering a friends luger. I told everything I knew about it and showed him a few things and thanked him, went on my way. A few hours later I bumped into him again but left with pistol in hand this time. Moral, knowledge and honesty makes a grand deal for both parties. Cheers.

04-06-2019, 10:20 PM	#14
RDS User Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: NE Posts: 13 Thanks: 34 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts	Another thing to consider. Even if the gun matches you have to check the condition of the firing pin. I worked in the industry back in the late 80s and most of the 90s.It was a time when WWII vets reached retirement age, were moving out of the greater NYC area and heading south. A good number of the guns that they brought into us to sell had broken off firing pin tips or no firing pin. The story was always the same. "I picked this up in the war but when the kids came along my wife made me remove the firing pin and I don't remember where I put it" or "I took the firing pin to work and ground the tip off to keep the wife happy. Sad but true.

04-07-2019, 01:49 AM	#15
gunnertwo User Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Nampa, Idaho Posts: 621 Thanks: 821 Thanked 930 Times in 363 Posts	True story on the FP. One of my treasures is a S&W Victory that was given to me by a Naval Aviator that was on the USS Bunker Hill when hit by a Kamikaze. He had clipped off the tip of the FP due to the grand kids. A trip to my local 'smith fixed that. He also gave me the USN marked shoulder holster that had his name and squadron - VT-84. G2