A "hypothetical" situation; comments solicited

[Navy]

Suppose a collector posts a list of his pieces for sale to finance a major acquisition.The collector states in the list that there is a 3 day return policy and made no reference to matching magazines. And additionally suppose said collector had a serial number suffix listed incorrectly on one pistol.

Now suppose 3.5 weeks after the pieces have been shipped, the buyer starts complaining about condition, mismatched magazines etc. What, if anything, is the collector/seller's obligation?

Comments solicited.

[Navy]

[quote]Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>Suppose a collector posts a list of his pieces for sale to finance a major acquisition.The collector states in the list that there is a 3 day return policy and made no reference to matching magazines. And additionally suppose said collector had a serial number suffix listed incorrectly on one pistol.

Now suppose 3.5 weeks after the pieces have been shipped, the buyer starts complaining about condition, mismatched magazines etc. What, if anything, is the collector/seller's obligation?

Comments solicited.</strong><hr></blockquote>
PS: Thats hypothetical, but you get the idea...

[Stu]

Ok, I'm keen on the hypothetical. The comments below are influenced by the 3 day versus 3 1/2 week timing issue you mention.

As to the magazine question; I believe that buyers have a due diligence responsibility when they're buying, ask questions before bidding, is a fair rule in my book. Similarly, if you have a 3 day inspection period people should use it or you lose it.

The suffix is more interesting; did the change in suffix affect the value of the piece or change the variation in some way ? Should the way the pistol is categorized from a collecting point of view change, I'd have a little more sympathy.

Buyers need to understand the conditions associated with a purchase and take responsibility. All to often nowadays it seems everything is someone elses problem and they're just a victim.

On the other hand, as a seller, I'd like people to receive the item they expected and if I make mistakes then I should put them right. What 'right' is varies on a case by case basis.

I suppose it all comes down to ones' moral perspective and if you feel you've dealt fairly.

Also a big factor is how the buyer approaches you. An aggressive stance always gets things off to the wrong start whereas if someone says 'well I thought the mag matched but it doesn't, do you have a better replacement or could we knock $50 from the price' or some other options I'd be more inclined to be flexible.

I hate selling things for exactly the points you raise ! I hope this thread generates a lively debate.

[Greg G]

I'm in agreement with Stu. The purpose of the 3 day inspection is to resolve these kinds of things. An adjustment in price or return of the gun should be arranged during this period. If more time is needed by the buyer, this could be arranged through negotiation with the seller.

[Frank]

Hypothetical is good!!

My first comment is regarding the "matching" statement. If the pistol was advertised as all matching, I would expect all parts to "properly" match. That means, at least to me, the requisite metal parts and the grips (if they are suppose to be matching) and the magazine. If the magazine isn't matching, it is the sellers obligation to state that upfront, IMO.

Next, the suffix. I agree with Stu, in that unless it has an affect on price, it shouldn't make a difference. That is unless the buyer has a desire for THAT particular suffix. For instance, I would be more than angry if I received a K-Date advertised as S/N 1543 and received S/N 1543a, even more so from a knowledgable Luger Collector.

As a buyer, I would probably ask if the matching statement meant grips and magazine, before I bought it. I don't know the knowledge level of the buyer, but it doesn't take three days to examine a Luger to determine the condition and confirmation of the matching statement (and serial number, if it's important).

As a buyer, I don't like surprises when I open the package. If you return the pistol, you pay freight both ways and in some cases the FFL dealer costs involved in the shipment both ways. This pretty well sucks, again IMO.

In this hypothetical case, I would try to give a novice a bit more slack, on the timing, than I would someone with much more experience. I believe that all or almost all dealers would tell the buyer not only no, but heck no.

<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

[Johnny Peppers]

I don't know how the ad was worded, but if a pistol is said to be all matching I would expect the magazine to match. If the ad stated all matching except the magazine I would expect a non-matching magazine. In the case of a commercial, I would expect the ad to state all matching except correct un-numbered magazine, or all matching except incorrect numbered magazine. Whether the magazine matches or not makes a difference in the value and desireability of the pistol. The more information that can be given on the front end cuts down on the problems after the sale.
While this has nothing to do with Tom's original question, there has been some discussion in the past on how to handle a faked or boosted Luger purchase. Just my opinion but a fake or boosted Luger is not always that easy to tell, especially to someone new to the hobby. The new guy may have to wait until he can get someone to examine the pistol to find out for sure what he has and the three day inspection doesn't help that much. This is where everyone should get a written statement from the seller that the pistol is exactly what it is stated to be as far as to originality and condition, especially on high end collectibles. If the pistol was advertised as original and correct, but is later found to be refinished or faked, then fraud was perpetrated and brings more than a stated three day inspection into the picture. There is a dealer in U.S. militry pistols that is known for the fake and boosted pistols he sells. Apparently he has escaped prosecution by simply returning the buyers money if the buyer complains. I know of one case where the buyer contacted the dealer a year after the purchase and complained that he had the pistol examined by a dozen or so collectors and they all stated that the pistol had been refinished and was in a fake box. The collector had originally been happy with his purchase, but started hearing stories of the faked and boosted pistols the dealer was selling. The buyer had all the correspondence stating that the pistol was in 99% original condition and in the original shipping box, and the dealer refunded the buyers money. Most anyone would be happy to have their money returned rather than to try and drag it through the courts, and the dealer continues on his merry way.

[Stu]

I think one major factor not mentioned in this is price. The approach and expectation when buying a $400 gun and a $4000 gun should be different for both the buyer and seller.

As a buyer I'm relatively tolerant about slight discrepancies regarding a $400 gun; not so a $4000 ! An unstated but mismatched mag on a $400, well, what do you expect for $400; but on a $4000 ? You better be sure of what you're buying and selling to avoid conflict.

I think as price increases both sides have a duty to be much more thorough, and any misrepresentation places the seller under a much greater obligation. Similarly, the buyer also needs to take a proffessional approach to his purchase and expect the terms of sale to be adhered too.

[Roadkill]

Go down to the local used car lot, pay $3500 for a vintage truck, sign the paperwork "SOLD AS IS WITH THREE DAY RETURN POLICY, NO QUESTIONS ASKED)wait three and a half weeks,then start complaining cause the tires aren't matched and the radio is a different model than came with the original and demand a full refund. See what happens. But then I live down here in Alabama.

Rk

[Doubs]

Tom, you offered a three day inspection period during which time the unmatched magazine and suffix letter should have been noted by the purchaser. IF these factors were not to the buyer's satisfaction then they had the priviledge of returning the item within the inspection period and having their money returned. Once the three days have passed, the buyer owns it. Period. Three and a half WEEKS after the fact is acting in bad faith on the part of the buyer.

When someone says "all matching", I automatically believe the magazine to be a mismatch until I can verify it. IF the buyer has a special reason for wanting a specific suffix letter, it's reasonable to believe that it would have been noticed immediately that the suffix letter wasn't what they wanted.

After three and a half weeks, I'd be of the opinion that the buyer has found a "better" deal and needs the money to make it happen.

Unless you, out of the goodness of your heart, wish to make good on the transaction and refund the guy's money, I'd explain that the inspection period is LONG past and you consider the matter closed.

[George Anderson]

I once sold a 1900 AE to a buyer in California with a three day inspection privledge. After receiving it he called to say that his prospective buyer could not come up with the money. I told him I hope he enjoyed the gun.

[Imperial Arms]

In my opinion, the seller's expertise, knowledge, integrity and good faith comes into consideration when listing or selling a pistol. If the seller is an expert and sells a pistol as 'all matching', then the pistol should be delivered with its correct matching (commercial or military) magazine. For example, if I was in your shoes, and the seller of your 1904 Navy serial #136 would have listed the pistol as 'all matching', then you better believe that I would expect a matching magazine! If I was to pay $30-$40k for a pistol, I better get the right 'animal' which meets my fullest satisfaction ! It should also meet the description according to condition, details and classification.

There are many factors which can go in either direction, but overall, it is better to conduct business properly and fairly. On the other hand, if you are going to buy a pistol from an old grandmother who has no idea what she owns, then one can use a whole different set of correct rules and the buyer has to use his own judgement and expertise to determine the gun's authenticity.

Furthermore, should the seller make an mistake in the serial number or suffix which drastically affects the price of the item, then the seller should give the option to reduce the price of the item to correctly compensate for the error or accept the return of the item if the buyer is not fully satisfied. For example, a Stoeger Luger with or without the 'v' suffix could create a large price difference; in regards to a military Luger, it could mean the difference between early or late production.

Although 'buyer beware' is no mentioned in this subject, I have to disagree with people who use this clause which gives many people the opportunity to conduct 'daylight' robbery, because there needs to be a strong standard/code of ethics and principles in the business. If fraud can be proved, by obtaining the opinions of a few experts in the field, then a buyer should have the right to a FULL refund irrespective of the time which has passed - those who conduct fraud know what they are doing and they should not be allowed to escape. I am not using this example as a means to defend myself because I was a victim in the past when I started collecting, but it could have saved the problem of making enemies or staining a person's reputation.

I remember 15-20 years ago asking a dealer 'is this item is genuine?', and he looked me straight in the eye and said YES'! Do you think he was acting in good faith or simply wanted to put his hand in this kid's pocket? Probably this kind of robbery has happened to everyone sometime in their collecting lifes which can be very costly but, at the end of the day, it is one's integrity that counts the most. I have observed that making a buyer happy pays off in the long term and may create additional future business.

I hope that I have provided some fair and reasonable advice to this interesting subject. Moreover, I hope that the Luger Forum continues to grow into a fantastic society where experts can meet and share their knowledge as well as experiences. As the general level of ethics and respect increases on this Forum to create harmony, maybe those collectors who have departed the Forum as a result of improper conduct against them might consider returning to donate their valuable knowledge.

Albert

[Stu]

I think Albert states a very clear case and I'd respect any dealer that adheres to his principles.

There may again be some different circumstance between a dealer and a private individual in the way they want to deal with these issues.

Case in point; I just bought a $500 dollar commercial listed as all matching by the private seller. It doesn't; the trigger is different, however the gun is a nicely reblued, (not dipped), shooter in good overall condition with a police mag. I'm not going to quibble about that error.

I've also exchanged mail with a dealer selling a 1916 Erfurt with a 'dull finish'. Looking at the photos the safety, trigger and takedown are all blued. He claims he can't tell if it's been refinished. Do you think I trust that guy and would do business with him ?

I do believe that you should ask questions about the issues that concern you, (maybe a checklist should be kept ?), and any misrepresentation made by the seller should be pursued whenever you find it.

On the other hand, I wouldn't take a gun back past any inspection period just because someone changed their mind or decided they didn't like something that was either stated at the time of sale, or that they could have reasonably asked about but didn't.

Again, the value of the item and the question of if you are dealing with professionals or amateurs affects the attitudes people take, and the responses you get.

[Edward Tinker]

I generally agree with everything said! That itself said, let me throw in my three cents as a mid-level almost collector.

1. 3 day inspection period, past that and what the he@@ was the buyer doing?

2. A matched to me does not automatically say matched magazine, but as we say in the army...
a. Since it came from a reputable collector, he should have stated matching mag or not
b. If other sale items said matching mag and that one didn't, shame on the buyer

3. I sold a rifle, 3 day inspection and the buyer said it had a broken extractor, I didn't say as is where is, I said 3 day inspect, so I paid for shipping back

4. If it is a $500 - $800 gun, then the expectation of matching goes down, but see 2a and RK

5. Wrong suffix, not a big deal, unless you are a collector and that was a reason you purchased it. Generally I would say, it makes little difference, if it makes a diff then see paragraph Frank and if it does not make a real diff see paragraph RK and paragraph Ed 3 and offer to send him $25 - $50 or a beat to he@@ holster

[wterrell]

A buyer is obliged to insure that his money has been well-spent. He cannot ask for a three day inspection as a bluff toward the seller. But there are some that feel that if the seller grants the inspection period then all must be well with the pistol. And then they fall asleep.

A buyer must realize that mistakes do occur, and this inspection period is to allow time to discover an unintentional mistake or oversight.

[Heinz]

1) Did the advertisement say it was "matching"? If not I think the expectation would be it is not matching and late return would not be appropriate. If it said "matching" and not "all matching" I do not have an opinion and defer to the experts.

2) Did the ad say it was "all matching"? In this case there may be a fair expectation that "all" would cover the magazine. However I expect 3 weeks is out of line.

3) Merely finding out that Lugers are expensive is not a GOOD reason to decide the quality is not what you expected from reading descriptions on ebay or dealers sites without ever looking at the pistols.

4) You are probably going to take it back anyhow because that whole list is bargain priced and you will move it again soon. ( I will trade you a stainless haenel schmeisser navy mag #134 for the P08 in question, sight unseen. How many concentric circles do you want?)

[G.W. Gill]

My opinion. Caveat emptor. Three day return policy... [img]rolleyes.gif[/img]