I inherited my grandfather's Luger, and it was identified as a Banner Army Model.

PTM76 · 08-20-2010, 12:49 AM

I was steered to this forum from ar15.com from the resident expert on lugers. I emailed him detailed pics, and he deemed it be a Banner Army luger.

Here are some pictures:

I am hoping to get an accurate appraisal, as I NEED to put this on insurance.

alanint · 08-20-2010, 06:53 AM

Welcome to the forum.
First off, it helps to see the entire serial number and any letter code. Hiding the numbers is an old habit that serves no purpose.
You need to send photos of the front serial of the gun, the proofs on the right side and photos of any other markings the gun has.
Do all the numbers match?
You have a 1940 Mauser Banner Police issue gun with what appears to be original finish. Better close-up photos would help establish this more solidly. It was drilled for a sear safety, which has since been removed and the side plate is not relieved for a safety, leading me to believe it may be a replacement. Does the number on the sideplate match the gun?
I can tell you that the holster does not match. It was made for a P38, not a Luger

sheepherder · 08-20-2010, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

First off, it helps to see the entire serial number and any letter code. Hiding the numbers is an old habit that serves no purpose.

Yes...We're pretty sure the original owner is dead or in hiding...

Looks good! Wish I had one!

PTM76 · 08-20-2010, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Welcome to the forum.
First off, it helps to see the entire serial number and any letter code. Hiding the numbers is an old habit that serves no purpose.
You need to send photos of the front serial of the gun, the proofs on the right side and photos of any other markings the gun has.
Do all the numbers match?
You have a 1940 Mauser Banner Police issue gun with what appears to be original finish. Better close-up photos would help establish this more solidly. It was drilled for a sear safety, which has since been removed and the side plate is not relieved for a safety, leading me to believe it may be a replacement. Does the number on the sideplate match the gun?
I can tell you that the holster does not match. It was made for a P38, not a Luger

All numbers match, and the magazine is matching as well. I removed the sideplate, and removed the firing pin. The firing pin also has matching serial number.

mrerick · 08-20-2010, 10:01 AM

Hi Peter,

Welcome to the forum!

In addition to the number "1146" which is on the side of the receiver (pictured) the serial number should appear on the front of the frame above the trigger guard. Below the numeric digits there may be a cursive letter. That letter is part of the serial number. Is it there? If so, what is it? From reference material it ought to be a cursive "x".

The Stick Eagle over 655 "SE/655" marks on the right side of your frame are military acceptance proofs. The SE/N on the left side of your frame is a commercial Nitro Proof mark from final testing of your pistol. This indicates that it was diverted from military production to police usage.

On the bottom of the barrel, you should find the barrel gauge stamping and serial number again. Please post a photo of that as well if possible.

Do the magazines match? Could we see the bottom of the magazine(s) and sides, including the acceptance stamps?

Finish condition and the matching mags impact value a great deal. Would you estimate 90% original finish?

You have a very nice Luger! If all is right, it is rather rare. According to Joop and Hallock in "The Mauser Parabellum" it could be part of a range of 860 similarly marked pistols, of which 39 (now possibly 40) are known, with only 4 (now 5) of those Police pistols.

Since this is from your Grandfather, it's likely he brought this back from WW-II in Europe. If so, the gun may have been authorized for return by the Army through a set of "Bring Back Papers" signed by his officer. The originals of those papers add to the value, provenance and history of your firearm. Do your best to locate them if they exist...

Marc

PTM76 · 08-20-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

.....
Since this is from your Grandfather, it's likely he brought this back from WW-II in Europe. If so, the gun may have been authorized for return by the Army through a set of "Bring Back Papers" signed by his officer. The originals of those papers add to the value, provenance and history of your firearm. Do your best to locate them if they exist...

Marc

I'll post pics of the mag and the others you requested.

The mag does have a matching serial number.

I don't have the papers, but I do have my grandfather's ownership card for the gun dated 10/05/1946. I'll post a pic of that as well when I get home from work.

PTM76 · 08-20-2010, 09:07 PM

I would rate the finish at about 90 percent or slightly lower. I don't really know how to judge these things, but I think I may be taking a conservative guess at it.

As requested, more pics:

mrerick · 08-20-2010, 10:20 PM

Proper matching police magazine #1 for the gun.

Check the back of the holster for it's markings.

Did you find the small tool under the flap in the holster?

This is a rather rare matching police rig in very collectible condition.

As to value... You can estimate retail replacement by looking at the Banner Lugers on http://simpsonltd.com.

They are listing a matching 1940 Banner rig with non matching magazines at$2895. A 1941 with two matching magazines is $4750 in better finish condition.

Others here have a better idea of actual sales value.

Marc

Edward Tinker · 08-20-2010, 11:02 PM

Keep in mind that you won't likely get that amount if you sell. Bob can keep something on the shelf for a while till the right person comes along.

I always figure, take their amount and deduct 30-40% and thats what you'd realisitcally get for it on the open market.

Ed

alanint · 08-20-2010, 11:10 PM

Remember that he will not find any tool under the flap on that holster! It's a P38 holster!!

PTM76 · 08-20-2010, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Keep in mind that you won't likely get that amount if you sell. Bob can keep something on the shelf for a while till the right person comes along.

I always figure, take their amount and deduct 30-40% and thats what you'd realisitcally get for it on the open market.

Ed

Not selling.

Want a value for insurance.

MFC · 08-21-2010, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

It was drilled for a sear safety, which has since been removed and the side plate is not relieved for a safety, leading me to believe it may be a replacement.

Some Mauser Banner police Lugers had the receiver rail drilled for the sear safety, but never installed.

PTM76 · 08-22-2010, 12:20 AM

mrerick, thanks for all your help!

Jan C Still · 08-22-2010, 03:29 AM

PTM76
Your 1940 Army/Police banner, sn 1146x, was drilled for the sear safety at the time of manufacture. All of those reported (to me and most other US collectors) show no evidence that the sear safety was ever installed. However, reported matched magazines are numbered 1 or 2 in the police style. As these matching police magazines were prepared by police armories, it is suggested that the final destination of these Lugers was the German Police.
Jan
See pages 140, 142, and 143 of Third Reich Lugers for additional information. However, some of this information may be dated because these are most likley police Lugers.

PTM76 · 08-22-2010, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan C Still

PTM76
Your 1940 Army/Police banner, sn 1146x, was drilled for the sear safety at the time of manufacture. All of those reported (to me and most other US collectors) show no evidence that the sear safety was ever installed. However, reported matched magazines are numbered 1 or 2 in the police style. As these matching police magazines were prepared by police armories, it is suggested that the final destination of these Lugers was the German Police.
Jan
See pages 140, 142, and 143 of Third Reich Lugers for additional information. However, some of this information may be dated because these are most likley police Lugers.

Wish I could.

Any source for a reasonably-priced copy of your book?

Thor · 08-25-2010, 10:07 AM

Is the ejector strawed or perhaps just a miscolored salt blue color, some are plumb colored, from salt bluing a hardened part? It might be a replacement, but no biggie as this part broke sometimes (I have broke one before firing a Luger) and they not numbered to the guns.

08-20-2010, 10:01 AM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Peter, Welcome to the forum! In addition to the number "1146" which is on the side of the receiver (pictured) the serial number should appear on the front of the frame above the trigger guard. Below the numeric digits there may be a cursive letter. That letter is part of the serial number. Is it there? If so, what is it? From reference material it ought to be a cursive "x". The Stick Eagle over 655 "SE/655" marks on the right side of your frame are military acceptance proofs. The SE/N on the left side of your frame is a commercial Nitro Proof mark from final testing of your pistol. This indicates that it was diverted from military production to police usage. On the bottom of the barrel, you should find the barrel gauge stamping and serial number again. Please post a photo of that as well if possible. Do the magazines match? Could we see the bottom of the magazine(s) and sides, including the acceptance stamps? Finish condition and the matching mags impact value a great deal. Would you estimate 90% original finish? You have a very nice Luger! If all is right, it is rather rare. According to Joop and Hallock in "The Mauser Parabellum" it could be part of a range of 860 similarly marked pistols, of which 39 (now possibly 40) are known, with only 4 (now 5) of those Police pistols. Since this is from your Grandfather, it's likely he brought this back from WW-II in Europe. If so, the gun may have been authorized for return by the Army through a set of "Bring Back Papers" signed by his officer. The originals of those papers add to the value, provenance and history of your firearm. Do your best to locate them if they exist... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-20-2010, 09:07 PM	#7
PTM76 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would rate the finish at about 90 percent or slightly lower. I don't really know how to judge these things, but I think I may be taking a conservative guess at it. As requested, more pics: Last edited by PTM76; 08-20-2010 at 09:54 PM.

08-20-2010, 10:20 PM	#8
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Proper matching police magazine #1 for the gun. Check the back of the holster for it's markings. Did you find the small tool under the flap in the holster? This is a rather rare matching police rig in very collectible condition. As to value... You can estimate retail replacement by looking at the Banner Lugers on http://simpsonltd.com. They are listing a matching 1940 Banner rig with non matching magazines at$2895. A 1941 with two matching magazines is $4750 in better finish condition. Others here have a better idea of actual sales value. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-20-2010, 11:02 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Keep in mind that you won't likely get that amount if you sell. Bob can keep something on the shelf for a while till the right person comes along. I always figure, take their amount and deduct 30-40% and thats what you'd realisitcally get for it on the open market. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-25-2010, 10:07 AM	#16
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	Is the ejector strawed or perhaps just a miscolored salt blue color, some are plumb colored, from salt bluing a hardened part? It might be a replacement, but no biggie as this part broke sometimes (I have broke one before firing a Luger) and they not numbered to the guns. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

08-20-2010, 12:49 AM	#1
PTM76 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I inherited my grandfather's Luger, and it was identified as a Banner Army Model. I was steered to this forum from ar15.com from the resident expert on lugers. I emailed him detailed pics, and he deemed it be a Banner Army luger. Here are some pictures: I am hoping to get an accurate appraisal, as I NEED to put this on insurance.

08-20-2010, 06:53 AM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Welcome to the forum. First off, it helps to see the entire serial number and any letter code. Hiding the numbers is an old habit that serves no purpose. You need to send photos of the front serial of the gun, the proofs on the right side and photos of any other markings the gun has. Do all the numbers match? You have a 1940 Mauser Banner Police issue gun with what appears to be original finish. Better close-up photos would help establish this more solidly. It was drilled for a sear safety, which has since been removed and the side plate is not relieved for a safety, leading me to believe it may be a replacement. Does the number on the sideplate match the gun? I can tell you that the holster does not match. It was made for a P38, not a Luger

08-20-2010, 11:10 PM	#10
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Remember that he will not find any tool under the flap on that holster! It's a P38 holster!!

08-22-2010, 12:20 AM	#13
PTM76 User Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	mrerick, thanks for all your help!

08-22-2010, 03:29 AM	#14
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	PTM76 Your 1940 Army/Police banner, sn 1146x, was drilled for the sear safety at the time of manufacture. All of those reported (to me and most other US collectors) show no evidence that the sear safety was ever installed. However, reported matched magazines are numbered 1 or 2 in the police style. As these matching police magazines were prepared by police armories, it is suggested that the final destination of these Lugers was the German Police. Jan See pages 140, 142, and 143 of Third Reich Lugers for additional information. However, some of this information may be dated because these are most likley police Lugers.