silly question maybe

VJJpunisher · 09-07-2011, 01:28 PM

sorry if this is a stupid question and probably very elementary but my question is - How do you know what manufacturer made a Luger originally if the toggle has been replaced?

I've caught the luger bug and a local shop has a luger that seems to be two seperate guns, meaning all the numbers on the frame match each other but all the numbers on the toggle train (if thats the correct term) are different but match each other. The left side has the nitro stamp or the N under a crown which means its a commercial right? but the toggle has the 42 for mauser. The chamber area has 1920 stamped on it.

So how do I know what the original manufacturer logo on the toggle should be? thank you for any help clearing this up to my uneducated lugerness

Edward Tinker · 09-07-2011, 03:23 PM

most likely DWM if it has a Crown N on it

But to answer your question, you look at any proofs and acceptance markings, you look at how things are made, you look at the tell-tale things NOT there, date, markings, mauser hump, etc.

process of elimination

But when it is a parts gun, you can only judge by the two main pieces, frame and upper receiver to have even a wild guess

Ed

VJJpunisher · 09-07-2011, 03:49 PM

thanks Ed, I sure have alot to learn on these things. Its a good looking gun I just know enough to know its been mismatched

Edward Tinker · 09-07-2011, 05:47 PM

read, find a mentor who can show you 20 or thirty lugers

I was lucky, my mentor had over a 150 lugers and he taught me a lot.

got to gun shows and find a gun with 10 lugers and ask questions, but beaware a lot, alot alot of the guys believe totally bogus things, so take notes and come back here

buy books, not just cheap books either

ed

mrerick · 09-07-2011, 09:22 PM

Ed's advice is what I think of as "Luger University".

You will pay tuition to "Luger University" if you're interested in Lugers.

One way, you'll pay by buying reference materials and studying.... participating on sites like this.

The other way, you'll buy a Luger and pay tuition by possibly overpaying for one that has a "problem"... Faked. Mis-Matched. Re-Finished etc, but those conditions not disclosed (or even understood) by the seller.

Marc

sheepherder · 09-07-2011, 10:16 PM

You didn't mention how much the local shop is asking for the mixed upper+lower Luger...

If the price is right, it can still be a good deal...Even if mismatched...

How about the magazine??? Is it a repro??? Are the grips original??? Has it been reblued??? Have any numbers been X'd out??? Does it have a sear safety??? Is it 9mm or 7.65mm???

Edward Tinker · 09-07-2011, 11:42 PM

Marc, what did they tell us, I have never paid too much for a luger, just paid more than it was worth for a few years

Ed

VJJpunisher · 09-08-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

You didn't mention how much the local shop is asking for the mixed upper+lower Luger...

If the price is right, it can still be a good deal...Even if mismatched...

How about the magazine??? Is it a repro??? Are the grips original??? Has it been reblued??? Have any numbers been X'd out??? Does it have a sear safety??? Is it 9mm or 7.65mm???

Postino,
The tag on it says $1,295 and I said "no offense Sir but I dont believe its worth quite that much, so whats your no BS bottom dollar price for a repeat customer (I have been goin there a while and have a good repor with this shop) to which he says to me he'd take 1,000. I didnt do it but been thinking of stuff from my aresenal i'd be willing to trade possibly depending on you guys' advice.

the magazine isn't a repro, its got a wood bottom but one of the "lugs"(?) is broke off.

can you point me in the direction on how to identify a sear safety

the grips are wood but not like any (limited experience mind you) I've seen. they have a flat non checkered border around them like youd see on the plastic ones

I dont recall seeing any numbers X'd out and the tag at least says its a 9mm.

spartacus38 · 09-08-2011, 11:23 AM

VJJ,
I would suggest you hold off buying it and learn more before you buy a parts gun(shooter).
Start out by buying a copy of Jan Still's Central powers and study it.
Bob

VJJpunisher · 09-08-2011, 02:03 PM

thanks for the advice spartacus, I know I should research more before a purchase as with anything, but are you also saying that price is off the wall?

spartacus38 · 09-08-2011, 02:13 PM

VJJ,
I believe the price is too high (maybe pay $600).
Wait ,learn and save your money for a nice,matching Luger.
Bob

sheepherder · 09-08-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VJJpunisher

can you point me in the direction on how to identify a sear safety

It's #29 in the FAQ...Description & pic...

Quote:

the grips are wood but not like any (limited experience mind you) I've seen. they have a flat non checkered border around them like youd see on the plastic ones

Some early Lugers had grips like that...

Ron Wood · 09-08-2011, 09:14 PM

The non-checkered border is found on Swiss Lugers when they began production around 1918 when guns were no longer available from Germany. These Swiss grips would be inletted for a grip safety. There are after-market grips of this pattern made for non-grip safety Lugers and this is what is on your gun. The nicest quality grips of this type (non-grip safety) that I have seen were made in Italy. The gun you are looking at is worth $600-700 tops as a shooter if in nice, functional condtion. For $1000 run away.

VJJpunisher · 09-09-2011, 12:12 PM

thanks for all the advice and info, i will keep looking for the starts to a collection

spartacus38 · 09-09-2011, 12:15 PM

Good luck to you.
Bob

Douglas Jr. · 09-16-2011, 11:21 AM

VJJ,

I know how it is to be infected with the Luger virus, but listen the guys and be patient.
Try learn as much as you can, read a lot, ask a lot. Books and fellow collectors willing to share their knowledge in forums like this one are a valuable asset at your hand. Stay calm and everything will work it out. In the end of the day you're gonna have a nice collection.

Good luck!

Douglas.

VJJpunisher · 09-19-2011, 11:59 AM

update fellas,
I was back in that shop picking up a transfer and the guy asks if Im still interested in the luger, well long story short he said he shouldve done more research first and that he's gonna lower the price quite a bit but wanted to offer it to me first. He said 700, I explained how ive been researching alot and asking alot of experts on "lugerforums" and they say not a penny over 550 for a mismatched commercial gun. I got it for 550 and am happy as a .........well something that is very happy.

So it has the Vertical N under a crown right next to the serial number, has same stamp and serial number under the barrel. has "1920" above the chamber

Back to my original question, since the toggle has been replaced and is a "42", who originally made it

John Sabato · 09-19-2011, 02:28 PM

"42" was a wartime code for Mauser. One of several. "S/42" "byf" etc.

VJJpunisher · 09-19-2011, 02:41 PM

thanks but I understand that part, the toggle assembly is not original to the rest of the gun, It is a Mauser assy but was wondering how would I know what manufacturer should be, or is a 42 marked mauser toggle possible ignoring the fact that the 2 digit numbers dont match

Don M · 09-19-2011, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VJJpunisher

So it has the Vertical N under a crown right next to the serial number, has same stamp and serial number under the barrel. has "1920" above the chamber

Back to my original question, since the toggle has been replaced and is a "42", who originally made it

It is quite possible that the receiver and frame are also mismatched. I don't think we will be much help without good photos.

09-07-2011, 01:28 PM	#1
VJJpunisher User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 28 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	silly question maybe sorry if this is a stupid question and probably very elementary but my question is - How do you know what manufacturer made a Luger originally if the toggle has been replaced? I've caught the luger bug and a local shop has a luger that seems to be two seperate guns, meaning all the numbers on the frame match each other but all the numbers on the toggle train (if thats the correct term) are different but match each other. The left side has the nitro stamp or the N under a crown which means its a commercial right? but the toggle has the 42 for mauser. The chamber area has 1920 stamped on it. So how do I know what the original manufacturer logo on the toggle should be? thank you for any help clearing this up to my uneducated lugerness

09-07-2011, 05:47 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	read, find a mentor who can show you 20 or thirty lugers I was lucky, my mentor had over a 150 lugers and he taught me a lot. got to gun shows and find a gun with 10 lugers and ask questions, but beaware a lot, alot alot of the guys believe totally bogus things, so take notes and come back here buy books, not just cheap books either ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-07-2011, 09:22 PM	#5
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,901 Thanks: 1,372 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Ed's advice is what I think of as "Luger University". You will pay tuition to "Luger University" if you're interested in Lugers. One way, you'll pay by buying reference materials and studying.... participating on sites like this. The other way, you'll buy a Luger and pay tuition by possibly overpaying for one that has a "problem"... Faked. Mis-Matched. Re-Finished etc, but those conditions not disclosed (or even understood) by the seller. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-07-2011, 10:16 PM	#6
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,182 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,440 Times in 2,328 Posts	You didn't mention how much the local shop is asking for the mixed upper+lower Luger... If the price is right, it can still be a good deal...Even if mismatched... How about the magazine??? Is it a repro??? Are the grips original??? Has it been reblued??? Have any numbers been X'd out??? Does it have a sear safety??? Is it 9mm or 7.65mm??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

09-07-2011, 11:42 PM	#7
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	Marc, what did they tell us, I have never paid too much for a luger, just paid more than it was worth for a few years Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-07-2011, 03:23 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,916 Thanks: 1,995 Thanked 4,507 Times in 2,081 Posts	most likely DWM if it has a Crown N on it But to answer your question, you look at any proofs and acceptance markings, you look at how things are made, you look at the tell-tale things NOT there, date, markings, mauser hump, etc. process of elimination But when it is a parts gun, you can only judge by the two main pieces, frame and upper receiver to have even a wild guess Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-07-2011, 03:49 PM	#3
VJJpunisher User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 28 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	thanks Ed, I sure have alot to learn on these things. Its a good looking gun I just know enough to know its been mismatched

09-08-2011, 11:23 AM	#9
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	VJJ, I would suggest you hold off buying it and learn more before you buy a parts gun(shooter). Start out by buying a copy of Jan Still's Central powers and study it. Bob

09-08-2011, 02:03 PM	#10
VJJpunisher User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 28 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	thanks for the advice spartacus, I know I should research more before a purchase as with anything, but are you also saying that price is off the wall?

09-08-2011, 02:13 PM	#11
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	VJJ, I believe the price is too high (maybe pay $600). Wait ,learn and save your money for a nice,matching Luger. Bob

09-08-2011, 09:14 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,992 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,099 Times in 1,676 Posts	The non-checkered border is found on Swiss Lugers when they began production around 1918 when guns were no longer available from Germany. These Swiss grips would be inletted for a grip safety. There are after-market grips of this pattern made for non-grip safety Lugers and this is what is on your gun. The nicest quality grips of this type (non-grip safety) that I have seen were made in Italy. The gun you are looking at is worth $600-700 tops as a shooter if in nice, functional condtion. For $1000 run away. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-09-2011, 12:12 PM	#14
VJJpunisher User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 28 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	thanks for all the advice and info, i will keep looking for the starts to a collection

09-09-2011, 12:15 PM	#15
spartacus38 Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: South Lake Tahoe,CA. Posts: 695 Thanks: 0 Thanked 70 Times in 56 Posts	Good luck to you. Bob

09-16-2011, 11:21 AM	#16
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	VJJ, I know how it is to be infected with the Luger virus, but listen the guys and be patient. Try learn as much as you can, read a lot, ask a lot. Books and fellow collectors willing to share their knowledge in forums like this one are a valuable asset at your hand. Stay calm and everything will work it out. In the end of the day you're gonna have a nice collection. Good luck! Douglas.

09-19-2011, 11:59 AM	#17
VJJpunisher User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 28 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	update fellas, I was back in that shop picking up a transfer and the guy asks if Im still interested in the luger, well long story short he said he shouldve done more research first and that he's gonna lower the price quite a bit but wanted to offer it to me first. He said 700, I explained how ive been researching alot and asking alot of experts on "lugerforums" and they say not a penny over 550 for a mismatched commercial gun. I got it for 550 and am happy as a .........well something that is very happy. So it has the Vertical N under a crown right next to the serial number, has same stamp and serial number under the barrel. has "1920" above the chamber Back to my original question, since the toggle has been replaced and is a "42", who originally made it

09-19-2011, 02:28 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,152 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	"42" was a wartime code for Mauser. One of several. "S/42" "byf" etc. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-19-2011, 02:41 PM	#19
VJJpunisher User Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Missouri Posts: 28 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	thanks but I understand that part, the toggle assembly is not original to the rest of the gun, It is a Mauser assy but was wondering how would I know what manufacturer should be, or is a 42 marked mauser toggle possible ignoring the fact that the 2 digit numbers dont match