Erfurt Arty Rig On Auction...

Pete Ebbink · 07-09-2003, 11:43 AM

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10172640

Since that fellow from the Texas "Cove" on Gun-broker has so many ads, I thought folks might miss this one that looks promising...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-10-2003, 01:45 AM

Pete,
a bit pricy, but interesting. No straps.I would love to hear a comment from Jerry Burney on this one. I think that I see the proof mark on the wood of the stock. I wonder if this was put together in pieces and not a true original rig. My Erfurt rigs stock has a crowned 'rc' just below the serial number on the iron. But I don't know if that was standard or what.
Big Norm

Dwight Gruber · 07-10-2003, 02:28 AM

Big Norm,

Crown/RC is the Revision Commission stamp. It signifies a part which is out-of-spec in some manner, but certified by an inspector in the Revision Commission as serviceable anyway. In additional to certifying such a part servicable, it supposedly protected the original inspector from repercussion in case the part failed later. They are not on every part, and not on every gun, and considering their purpose I certainly would not characterize them as "standard".

Erfurts seem to have a lot of them on their guns, I don't recall ever seeing one--or hearing of one, for that matter-on a DWM.

Here are Revision Commission stamps on two different Erfurt frames, noting some problem (unknown) with the parts, and protecting the inspectors whose stamps are adjacent.

As far as the rig in question is concerned, yes, you do see the inspector's stamp--I don't know if it is properly a "proof"--on the stock. It might properly be an Erfurt stock, it is hard to tell if the figure to the right of the serial# is a Crown/Letter or not. There is a lot of verdigris on the mounting hardware, more detailed photos would go a long way to determining whether or not it is an original assembly.

Seems like a lot of money, in any case...

--Dwight

Doubs · 07-10-2003, 02:09 PM

I think the rig is WAY over priced but maybe I'm out of touch with market values. The internet seems to have driven Luger prices into outter space and even mis-matched shooters are bringing over-the-top prices IMO.

About a year ago (IIRC) there was a DWM Luger from the pre-WW1 period reported on this forum with a C/RC stamp on it. Don't recall who posted it but I'm certain that it was.

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2003, 06:16 PM

Hello Walker,

I agree about the price as well.

But the upside for such price inflation, it that the old-time collectors can really cash-in on their investments now.

Us newer folks just need to dig deeper into our pockets before we can jump in the pool... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Pete Ebbink · 07-10-2003, 09:10 PM

Hello Dwight,

In Jan Still's Imperial Lugers book, on frontipiece page xxvii, there is a nice color photo of an Erfurt rig, and the wooden stock has the same, large Erfurt proof/stamp as the one that is shown on the auction...so maybe this one is the real-deal...(or maybe someone got a hold of a good stamp...).

Best Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Dwight Gruber · 07-11-2003, 11:04 AM

I was under the impression that -all- authentic Artillery stocks have the inspector's stamp on the wood. Am I misinformed?

--Dwight

Pete Ebbink · 07-12-2003, 07:10 PM

Looks like the same rig is now on auction on e-Bay :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=13965

Seller appears to be Dr. Len Antaris, who has some Spanish pistol books out...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-12-2003, 07:33 PM

Dwight,
Yep! Thats the mark that I have on the metal of my stock. Thanks for the clarification.

Personally, I don't consider stocks that don't have inspectors stamps on them. But John Walter in his book "The Luger Book" says that that isn't always true. Also, he said that sometimes the serial number was stamped on the wood.

I have seen two stocks with counterfeit proof marks on the wood on the internet recently. One was a holster rig and the other was just the stock. I happened to buy a Trommel magazine off of the guy who bought the rig and he confirmed that the stock was fake. On the stock only one, the guy did not manage to sell the stock on the first try but later sold the serial numbered iron only. I THINK he got in the $175-200 area price for it. Since both stocks were sold by different people, I assume that there are at least two counterfeit stamps out there.
Big Norm

ViggoG · 07-13-2003, 03:06 AM

I am wondering if the failure of Enron and others has not caused some of the better collector items to be placed for sale to be surfacing to make up for the vast losses that the owners have incurred.
Or is there some other reason ???
it sure has me wondering about the timing of these appearances.
ViggoG

trigger643 · 07-13-2003, 07:56 AM

The seller of this rig is Dr Antaris. If he says it's legit... it is. He puts a premium on his items, but you never have to lay awake at night wondering if it's perfectly correct. I've purchased a few items from him that were mauser related. He'll entertain offers for quick sales. But he doesn't need the money, so never mind insulting him with a low ball or wholesale price. By the way, if you are a Star or an Astra fan, his books are an excellent investment for collecting in this field.

Pete Ebbink · 07-21-2003, 09:43 PM

Item went gavel-down for $ 2,500.00...

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Big Norm · 07-25-2003, 08:37 PM

$2500! Whew, I could only justify that if I had the Luger that matched the serial number on the stock.
Big Norm

07-09-2003, 11:43 AM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Erfurt Arty Rig On Auction... http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=10172640 Since that fellow from the Texas "Cove" on Gun-broker has so many ads, I thought folks might miss this one that looks promising... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-13-2003, 07:56 AM	#11
trigger643 User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Murfreesboro Posts: 502 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	The seller of this rig is Dr Antaris. If he says it's legit... it is. He puts a premium on his items, but you never have to lay awake at night wondering if it's perfectly correct. I've purchased a few items from him that were mauser related. He'll entertain offers for quick sales. But he doesn't need the money, so never mind insulting him with a low ball or wholesale price. By the way, if you are a Star or an Astra fan, his books are an excellent investment for collecting in this field. __________________ "There are three reasons to own a gun: To protect yourself and your family, to hunt dangerous and delicious animals, and to keep the King of England out of your face." Ã¢?? Krusty the Clown

07-10-2003, 01:45 AM	#2
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Pete, a bit pricy, but interesting. No straps.I would love to hear a comment from Jerry Burney on this one. I think that I see the proof mark on the wood of the stock. I wonder if this was put together in pieces and not a true original rig. My Erfurt rigs stock has a crowned 'rc' just below the serial number on the iron. But I don't know if that was standard or what. Big Norm

07-10-2003, 02:28 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Big Norm, Crown/RC is the Revision Commission stamp. It signifies a part which is out-of-spec in some manner, but certified by an inspector in the Revision Commission as serviceable anyway. In additional to certifying such a part servicable, it supposedly protected the original inspector from repercussion in case the part failed later. They are not on every part, and not on every gun, and considering their purpose I certainly would not characterize them as "standard". Erfurts seem to have a lot of them on their guns, I don't recall ever seeing one--or hearing of one, for that matter-on a DWM. Here are Revision Commission stamps on two different Erfurt frames, noting some problem (unknown) with the parts, and protecting the inspectors whose stamps are adjacent. As far as the rig in question is concerned, yes, you do see the inspector's stamp--I don't know if it is properly a "proof"--on the stock. It might properly be an Erfurt stock, it is hard to tell if the figure to the right of the serial# is a Crown/Letter or not. There is a lot of verdigris on the mounting hardware, more detailed photos would go a long way to determining whether or not it is an original assembly. Seems like a lot of money, in any case... --Dwight

07-10-2003, 02:09 PM	#4
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,671 Thanks: 772 Thanked 1,617 Times in 526 Posts	I think the rig is WAY over priced but maybe I'm out of touch with market values. The internet seems to have driven Luger prices into outter space and even mis-matched shooters are bringing over-the-top prices IMO. About a year ago (IIRC) there was a DWM Luger from the pre-WW1 period reported on this forum with a C/RC stamp on it. Don't recall who posted it but I'm certain that it was.

07-10-2003, 06:16 PM	#5
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Walker, I agree about the price as well. But the upside for such price inflation, it that the old-time collectors can really cash-in on their investments now. Us newer folks just need to dig deeper into our pockets before we can jump in the pool... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-10-2003, 09:10 PM	#6
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Dwight, In Jan Still's Imperial Lugers book, on frontipiece page xxvii, there is a nice color photo of an Erfurt rig, and the wooden stock has the same, large Erfurt proof/stamp as the one that is shown on the auction...so maybe this one is the real-deal...(or maybe someone got a hold of a good stamp...). Best Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-11-2003, 11:04 AM	#7
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	I was under the impression that -all- authentic Artillery stocks have the inspector's stamp on the wood. Am I misinformed? --Dwight

07-12-2003, 07:10 PM	#8
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Looks like the same rig is now on auction on e-Bay : http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=13965 Seller appears to be Dr. Len Antaris, who has some Spanish pistol books out... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-12-2003, 07:33 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Dwight, Yep! Thats the mark that I have on the metal of my stock. Thanks for the clarification. Personally, I don't consider stocks that don't have inspectors stamps on them. But John Walter in his book "The Luger Book" says that that isn't always true. Also, he said that sometimes the serial number was stamped on the wood. I have seen two stocks with counterfeit proof marks on the wood on the internet recently. One was a holster rig and the other was just the stock. I happened to buy a Trommel magazine off of the guy who bought the rig and he confirmed that the stock was fake. On the stock only one, the guy did not manage to sell the stock on the first try but later sold the serial numbered iron only. I THINK he got in the $175-200 area price for it. Since both stocks were sold by different people, I assume that there are at least two counterfeit stamps out there. Big Norm

07-13-2003, 03:06 AM	#10
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I am wondering if the failure of Enron and others has not caused some of the better collector items to be placed for sale to be surfacing to make up for the vast losses that the owners have incurred. Or is there some other reason ??? it sure has me wondering about the timing of these appearances. ViggoG

07-21-2003, 09:43 PM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Item went gavel-down for $ 2,500.00... Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

07-25-2003, 08:37 PM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	$2500! Whew, I could only justify that if I had the Luger that matched the serial number on the stock. Big Norm