A question re: "9" marked grip Artillery Lugers

Frank H. · 07-08-2004, 01:24 AM

I did a search on the Archives to learn what I could about the Artillery Lugers that had the "9" marked on their grips (like the broomhandles which were marked this way), and enjoyed seeing some photos of 9 grip Artilleries on Mauro's Artillery Luger site (I'll have to get that book!)

I've come across someone with a "9" griped 1917 DWM Artillery and I'm in the process of working out a trade with them for other things I've got that they want. (Edited correction: The trade fell through, the guy wants to keep the Artillery Luger after all, I'll trim off the trade details and leave the original question here).

What's the story with the "9" grips? Was it a carry over like from the broomhandles re: differentiating from the .30 cal guns? Was it kind of a fluke, not done to many of the Artilleries? Are they any more valuable as a variant (if original, which he says it is)?

Thanks in advance for any insight here, and one final point of interest, the "red" 9 grips... Red stained wood? I saw one of the "9"'s on Mauro's site was almost blonde, maybe that one got a clean-up / refinish, were most all of the "9" grip's on Artilleries red?

Thanks in advance,

Frank H. in L.A.

Lugerdoc · 07-08-2004, 09:15 AM

Frank, In my opinion the "Red Nine" marked LPO8s were a mistake. I believe that several field armours misinterpeted the instruction that mandated the marking be placed on the early production (those below S/N 61,000) 9mmP military brooms, witch all left the factory with unmarked grips. Since this marking was done "in the field" (post factory) the size and style of the "9"s, will vary greatly and lends itself to many forgeries. TH

Edward Tinker · 07-08-2004, 10:05 AM

Frank, I think it is an interesting variant, but due to the easy fakery that can be done (and it might have been done 50 years ago), I would not pay a lot extra for a gun like this. I wouldn't mind having one myself, but just not spend a lot of extra money for one...

Ed

George Anderson · 07-08-2004, 10:14 AM

I have two, a shooter with one faked grip and a 100% original. Like Ed, I think they are important to an Artillery collection but are certainly suseptible to fakery. If you really want one it's probably worth a couple of hundred more than the run of the mill 1917.

I would be interested to hear of any artilleries other than 1917's that have black or red nine grips.

PAOLO · 07-08-2004, 01:23 PM

George
I know some,and all are 1917 dated or before(a friend of mine has a 1914 Erfurt one).They were wrongly marked TOGHETHER with the formerly non-marked 9 mm.C96s at the end of 1917.When a German unit had toghether LP08s and 9mm.C96s,and the order of engraving the Red Nine came,probably some unit armoures marked toghether the"Grosse Pistolen"(Mauser)and the "Lange Pistolen"(DWM or Erfurt)

George Anderson · 07-08-2004, 03:26 PM

Paolo, thanks.

Email when you have a chance. Just got a new one (LP08).geo

Don H. · 07-09-2004, 08:36 PM

Frank My father recently purchased a 1915 with the 9's on the grip. I feel confident this is an original. There is a post of it under artilleries with pictures. Don

mauro · 07-11-2004, 04:40 PM

Hello people,
I would like to add my 2 cents to this discussion. The Ã¢??red nineÃ¢?Â topic has been analyzed a few times in previous discussions. I agree with the PaoloÃ¢??s point of view. For this reasons, I will remind you of the study of Mr. Gortz on this matter.
Mr. Gortz in his book, Die Pistole 08, states that the Kriegsministerium, on the date of December 14th 1917, instructed that all the Ã¢??Lange Mauser-PistoleÃ¢?Â in 9mm were marked with a red nine in the grips. Gortz suggested that armorers mixed up the DWM logo as Ã¢??Deutschen Waffenfabrik MauserÃ¢?Â and for this reason also the Lange P08 were marked with the red nine.
I think this hypothesis very realistic.
I hope this helps.
Ciao
Mauro

Big Norm · 07-13-2004, 02:00 PM

Personally, I think that over the 90 or so years, the grips may have been changed from one artillery to another for appearance sake. While the theory that the armoures engraved them certainly sounds plausable, who knows what new owners did to the grips over the years. Maybe not fakery, maybe just the switching of a one set of broken grips to a nicer set. Many people just wanted to pretty up their Lugers.
Big Norm

George Anderson · 07-13-2004, 04:31 PM

My experiance has been to far more often come across used "9" grips floating around at gunshows than to find LP08s with them. I think, that in the past, it was common for folks to "upgrade" their pistols by getting rid of the ugly grips.

Big Norm · 07-14-2004, 12:34 AM

I have a set of nice Red Nine grips that I thought would look nice on one of my artilleries. But then I found a set of neat "trench art" grips that look even better. Someone had done a nice job of carving a German eagle on both grips about 1.5 inches high and painted the eagles white with the walnut stain background. The new grips look real nice on an artillery Luger that I bought with repro grips.
Big Norm

PAOLO · 07-14-2004, 01:02 AM

Big Norm
When I say I know some specimens,I mean guns with matching "red nine" grips.Obviously everything is possible,but in Europe a LP08 with a red nine carved in the grips has never been a pretty one,but perhaps a lesser interesting one.

Big Norm · 07-14-2004, 03:11 PM

PAOLO.
you are right, a nice Luger with a nice set of grips are pretty. But replacing a set of original grips that may be broken or badly dented on an otherwise nice Luger is forgivable to a collector. The same can be said, in my case, for replacing an ill fitting repro set of grips.I would never replace an original set of grips that are matching and in good condition with something else.

Some day, hopefully in the near future, I will upgrade my computer and get a digital camera. Then you will see the chamber dated 1914 DWM artillery that I put my "Trench Art" grips on. I am sure that you will agree that these grips look better than the badly fitting repro grips that came with the gun. I put the "Trench Art" grips on that artillery Luger because the wear on the grips looked more appropriate than did the wear on my "Red Nine" grips on this particular gun. I am sure that if I showed this gun to your friend, Mauro, he would say, "WOW! I would like to buy this gun from you for a big box of gold!".

And I would have to say, "Please Mauro, I am an honest man. Not such a big box.". <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />

But these weapons are nearly 90 years old and have been through a number of different people, each with their particular tastes. I would never say that just because I purchased an artillery Luger with a set of "Red Nine" grips that that would mean that the gun originally came with these grips.

Big Norm

07-08-2004, 01:24 AM	#1
Frank H. User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Oregon, south of Portland Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A question re: "9" marked grip Artillery Lugers I did a search on the Archives to learn what I could about the Artillery Lugers that had the "9" marked on their grips (like the broomhandles which were marked this way), and enjoyed seeing some photos of 9 grip Artilleries on Mauro's Artillery Luger site (I'll have to get that book!) I've come across someone with a "9" griped 1917 DWM Artillery and I'm in the process of working out a trade with them for other things I've got that they want. (Edited correction: The trade fell through, the guy wants to keep the Artillery Luger after all, I'll trim off the trade details and leave the original question here). What's the story with the "9" grips? Was it a carry over like from the broomhandles re: differentiating from the .30 cal guns? Was it kind of a fluke, not done to many of the Artilleries? Are they any more valuable as a variant (if original, which he says it is)? Thanks in advance for any insight here, and one final point of interest, the "red" 9 grips... Red stained wood? I saw one of the "9"'s on Mauro's site was almost blonde, maybe that one got a clean-up / refinish, were most all of the "9" grip's on Artilleries red? Thanks in advance, Frank H. in L.A.

07-08-2004, 09:15 AM	#2
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Frank, In my opinion the "Red Nine" marked LPO8s were a mistake. I believe that several field armours misinterpeted the instruction that mandated the marking be placed on the early production (those below S/N 61,000) 9mmP military brooms, witch all left the factory with unmarked grips. Since this marking was done "in the field" (post factory) the size and style of the "9"s, will vary greatly and lends itself to many forgeries. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

07-08-2004, 10:05 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Frank, I think it is an interesting variant, but due to the easy fakery that can be done (and it might have been done 50 years ago), I would not pay a lot extra for a gun like this. I wouldn't mind having one myself, but just not spend a lot of extra money for one... Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

07-08-2004, 01:23 PM	#5
PAOLO User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Cremona, Italy Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	George I know some,and all are 1917 dated or before(a friend of mine has a 1914 Erfurt one).They were wrongly marked TOGHETHER with the formerly non-marked 9 mm.C96s at the end of 1917.When a German unit had toghether LP08s and 9mm.C96s,and the order of engraving the Red Nine came,probably some unit armoures marked toghether the"Grosse Pistolen"(Mauser)and the "Lange Pistolen"(DWM or Erfurt) __________________ PAOLO

07-11-2004, 04:40 PM	#8
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	Hello people, I would like to add my 2 cents to this discussion. The Ã¢??red nineÃ¢?Â topic has been analyzed a few times in previous discussions. I agree with the PaoloÃ¢??s point of view. For this reasons, I will remind you of the study of Mr. Gortz on this matter. Mr. Gortz in his book, Die Pistole 08, states that the Kriegsministerium, on the date of December 14th 1917, instructed that all the Ã¢??Lange Mauser-PistoleÃ¢?Â in 9mm were marked with a red nine in the grips. Gortz suggested that armorers mixed up the DWM logo as Ã¢??Deutschen Waffenfabrik MauserÃ¢?Â and for this reason also the Lange P08 were marked with the red nine. I think this hypothesis very realistic. I hope this helps. Ciao Mauro __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

07-08-2004, 10:14 AM	#4
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	I have two, a shooter with one faked grip and a 100% original. Like Ed, I think they are important to an Artillery collection but are certainly suseptible to fakery. If you really want one it's probably worth a couple of hundred more than the run of the mill 1917. I would be interested to hear of any artilleries other than 1917's that have black or red nine grips.

07-08-2004, 03:26 PM	#6
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	Paolo, thanks. Email when you have a chance. Just got a new one (LP08).geo

07-09-2004, 08:36 PM	#7
Don H. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Albuquerque,NM. Posts: 96 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 2 Posts	Frank My father recently purchased a 1915 with the 9's on the grip. I feel confident this is an original. There is a post of it under artilleries with pictures. Don

07-13-2004, 02:00 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Personally, I think that over the 90 or so years, the grips may have been changed from one artillery to another for appearance sake. While the theory that the armoures engraved them certainly sounds plausable, who knows what new owners did to the grips over the years. Maybe not fakery, maybe just the switching of a one set of broken grips to a nicer set. Many people just wanted to pretty up their Lugers. Big Norm

07-13-2004, 04:31 PM	#10
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	My experiance has been to far more often come across used "9" grips floating around at gunshows than to find LP08s with them. I think, that in the past, it was common for folks to "upgrade" their pistols by getting rid of the ugly grips.

07-14-2004, 12:34 AM	#11
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I have a set of nice Red Nine grips that I thought would look nice on one of my artilleries. But then I found a set of neat "trench art" grips that look even better. Someone had done a nice job of carving a German eagle on both grips about 1.5 inches high and painted the eagles white with the walnut stain background. The new grips look real nice on an artillery Luger that I bought with repro grips. Big Norm

07-14-2004, 01:02 AM	#12
PAOLO User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Cremona, Italy Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Big Norm When I say I know some specimens,I mean guns with matching "red nine" grips.Obviously everything is possible,but in Europe a LP08 with a red nine carved in the grips has never been a pretty one,but perhaps a lesser interesting one. __________________ PAOLO

07-14-2004, 03:11 PM	#13
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	PAOLO. you are right, a nice Luger with a nice set of grips are pretty. But replacing a set of original grips that may be broken or badly dented on an otherwise nice Luger is forgivable to a collector. The same can be said, in my case, for replacing an ill fitting repro set of grips.I would never replace an original set of grips that are matching and in good condition with something else. Some day, hopefully in the near future, I will upgrade my computer and get a digital camera. Then you will see the chamber dated 1914 DWM artillery that I put my "Trench Art" grips on. I am sure that you will agree that these grips look better than the badly fitting repro grips that came with the gun. I put the "Trench Art" grips on that artillery Luger because the wear on the grips looked more appropriate than did the wear on my "Red Nine" grips on this particular gun. I am sure that if I showed this gun to your friend, Mauro, he would say, "WOW! I would like to buy this gun from you for a big box of gold!". And I would have to say, "Please Mauro, I am an honest man. Not such a big box.". <img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> But these weapons are nearly 90 years old and have been through a number of different people, each with their particular tastes. I would never say that just because I purchased an artillery Luger with a set of "Red Nine" grips that that would mean that the gun originally came with these grips. Big Norm