First Post – DWM 30 Caliber Luger

JesseMc · 10-29-2013, 02:24 PM

Hello – I am new to Luger Forum, but have attempted to read through previous posts and hopefully post in an intelligent manner. I am researching, photographing, and documenting a Luger pistol and holster set that a friend’s father brought back from his service during WWII. The following is a description of the set with details (I am also uploading specific photos).

I would like to get some expert comments about this set, specifically: (1) What is the correct description of this pistol (Military, Commercial); (2) What is the approximate date of manufacture; (3) Who manufactured it and where; (4) What is its possible value of the complete set (if she decides to sell it); (5) Is it true that broken “Hold-Open Latch” will not affect shooting; and (6) Is it possible to get a replacement “Hold-Open Latch”, possibly with a “39” marking? If so, what would be the approximate cost for this?

Here is what I have so far (I will be uploading photos as well):

The Set: The pistol is a 30 caliber (7.65mm), with “Hard Shell” holster, and two (2) clips. This pistol has a 3” barrel and the top of the toggle is marked with “39” and the “DWM” scroll imprint (no dates at all). The pistol appears to be original finish (blue) with some rubbed areas on exterior and a few lightly pitted areas on frame where grips touch frame. The “Hold Open Latch” (marked “39”) is there, but the right-angled tab (facing toward the chamber) which actually holds toggle open has broken off and is missing.
Serial Number: “8239”, with “39” on all gun parts (external/internal). I have NOT attempted to remove and/or check the firing pin.
Other Markings: Under the barrel there are three (3) markings: A “Crown” with pentagon; a large “N”; the S/N “8239“; and then a curving script type marking almost like an “Infinity” mark. At the mating of barrel and chamber, there is the mark made after barrel was fully screwed-in and tightened (appears to be intact and original indent showing no changes to barrel). On the frame below the chamber, there is the S/N “8239” and that curving script type marking almost like an “Infinity” mark. Inside the frame (machined out area), forward of the chamber, there are two marks which appear to be a “W” and possibly a “N” or inverted “V”.
Magazines: One with S/N “8239” and “P”; the other is S/N “9969”, and what appears to be a letter “h” in cursive script. Both magazines are bright metal, with tight grain (maple?) wooden base caps which are in very good condition, and the springs are in excellent condition. There are a few slight discoloration spots on the metal of the magazines.
Holster: Black leather “Hard Shell” with inside flap pocket for the pistol tool. The pistol “Tool” is located in the top of the holster flap, and is marked “8239” and the letter “P”. The flap pocket is in excellent shape and is still tight to fasten down over the post (button). There are two (2) belt loops on the reverse, and a belt type fastener to hold the hard-shell top down. There is a leather strap on the inside of holster, with tab showing outside for lifting the pistol upward in the holster. The black ink markings on inside of top shows “R.B.D., Stuttgart, and 1939”. The indented markings on the reverse side of holster are: “HANSROMER, NEU ULM”. There are no other markings on the reverse side. The front edge of the holster has the additional magazine holder which is in excellent condition. All stitching is fully intact and tight.

Any help in providing details about this particular gun, as well as the possible value of the entire set, will be greatly appreciated. If anyone in the Luger Forum is located in Indiana area (I am in Indianapolis), can you let me know how to contact you? I would be more than willing to bring the gun set to you so you can see what we have. THANKS!

alanint · 10-29-2013, 03:22 PM

You have a very interesting DWM 1920s "Alphabet Commercial" pistol, which, (if the holster markings are authentic), was once issued to the German Labor Corps. It has one matching magazine and a matching takedown tool, (again, if all original).

The finish looks original and this is a very nice rig for someone who collects these mid wars German organization pistols.

It would not be impossible to find a correct, matching holdopen lever for this pistol through members of this site.

The RAD:
http://www.german-helmets.com/RAD_MAIN.htm

lugerholsterrepair · 10-29-2013, 03:36 PM

In several decades of being interested in Luger holsters I have never seen an interior marked this way this large. This might have been issued to the very elderly..they need large print.

The initial do not spell out RAD.

DavidJayUden · 10-29-2013, 04:37 PM

Were any commercial guns sold with serialized magazines and tools? Is the p on the magazine and tool supposed to be the suffix or does that have other meaning?
I'm thinking that the organization re-numbered the mag. and tool to match. Normally I'd be yelling "foul" about now, but this one may have an unusual history.
dju

lugerholsterrepair · 10-29-2013, 04:44 PM

David..I wonder. Just because I have never seen it doesn't make it necessarily suspect. I actually like the mag and tool markings..P on Swiss mags mean Private sale. I don't know what this may mean. The serial on the BACK of a tool normally means Police but no Police indicators here.

The matching mag, 8239 appears to be a late beech wood.

It would be unusual but not un heard of to find even a quasi military pistol in .30 Luger. I think there are known examples of German Lugers in .30 for the railway.

The ink stamp at first looks to be RAD but blown up it looks more like RBD? or RBO?

Ron Wood · 10-29-2013, 06:40 PM

Need a better photo! Also looks like it might be P. a D.

lugersrkewl · 10-30-2013, 01:49 PM

wow there is nothing commercial about it except the crown n on the barrel and the wooden mag bases. Looks like an imperial that went to swiss with that p if I had to guess very interested to see what this is.

JesseMc · 10-30-2013, 04:53 PM

I really appreciate the feedback so far. I am posting-up another photo of the inside of the top flap of holster, showing the black markings inside. I hope this clears up any confusion over the markings. If anyone needs additional photos, just let me know.

As an update, my friend attempted to get more info on how the gun was acquired by her Dad (last week). Unfortunately, due to age and previous stroke, communication with him is very difficult. He was in France and Germany later in 1944 (NOT D-Day) and into 1945 and "somehow" got the "set", including pistol, mags, and holster) and brought it home with him and parked it. I don't think there was much manufacturing in that area then, including repros. However, I don't mind you questioning authenticity. Unfortunately, that is what you have to do. I am simply trying to get as much info on the set as possible so that she can make informed decision should she decide to sell the set in the future. THANKS!

Ron Wood · 10-30-2013, 05:29 PM

My memory is a little foggy on the subject but wasn't there railroad police organization something like Reichs Bahnhof Direktor?

JesseMc · 11-03-2013, 07:12 PM

I just read some things about "Stock Lugs", but not sure if that helps anything with my friends' DWM 30 Caliber set. I am uploading additional photos: (1) Front of frame markings; and (2) Two photos of what I believe you guys are calling Stock Lugs. I am not sure if the Stock Lugs (or marks at front of frame) helps to confirm previous answer about our gun being a "mid-1920's Commerical - Alphabet gun". Also, does anyone care to speculate as to how a mid-1920's gun may have been paired with this 1939 Hard Shell holster marked R.A.D. and Stuttgart? Someone has mentioned the letters may be for "Reichs Bahnoff Deutschland" or Railroad Police. As mentioned before, I really appreciate the help with this project. THANKS!

JesseMc · 11-03-2013, 08:07 PM

I just noticed another mark on the 30 Caliber DWM Luger set that I missed previously. On the left side of the frame, somewhat superimposed at Serial Number, is another "Crown" and "N". I am not sure if this helps in confirming the 'Mid-1920's Commerical - Alphabet" or not. Additionally, this photo shows the "Round in Chamber" indicator (Geladen) which is why I took the initial photo - I just did not see the Crown and N in that shot before. If anyone needs any additional information or specific photos, please don't hesitate to ask and I will respond. THANKS!

alanint · 11-03-2013, 08:17 PM

The Crown/N is a typical, commercial Nitro proof and correct for your pistol

Sergio Natali · 11-04-2013, 07:08 AM

I just wanted to tell you that, to me, you've got quite a nice rig.

10-29-2013, 02:24 PM	#1
JesseMc User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	First Post – DWM 30 Caliber Luger Hello – I am new to Luger Forum, but have attempted to read through previous posts and hopefully post in an intelligent manner. I am researching, photographing, and documenting a Luger pistol and holster set that a friend’s father brought back from his service during WWII. The following is a description of the set with details (I am also uploading specific photos). I would like to get some expert comments about this set, specifically: (1) What is the correct description of this pistol (Military, Commercial); (2) What is the approximate date of manufacture; (3) Who manufactured it and where; (4) What is its possible value of the complete set (if she decides to sell it); (5) Is it true that broken “Hold-Open Latch” will not affect shooting; and (6) Is it possible to get a replacement “Hold-Open Latch”, possibly with a “39” marking? If so, what would be the approximate cost for this? Here is what I have so far (I will be uploading photos as well): The Set: The pistol is a 30 caliber (7.65mm), with “Hard Shell” holster, and two (2) clips. This pistol has a 3” barrel and the top of the toggle is marked with “39” and the “DWM” scroll imprint (no dates at all). The pistol appears to be original finish (blue) with some rubbed areas on exterior and a few lightly pitted areas on frame where grips touch frame. The “Hold Open Latch” (marked “39”) is there, but the right-angled tab (facing toward the chamber) which actually holds toggle open has broken off and is missing. Serial Number: “8239”, with “39” on all gun parts (external/internal). I have NOT attempted to remove and/or check the firing pin. Other Markings: Under the barrel there are three (3) markings: A “Crown” with pentagon; a large “N”; the S/N “8239“; and then a curving script type marking almost like an “Infinity” mark. At the mating of barrel and chamber, there is the mark made after barrel was fully screwed-in and tightened (appears to be intact and original indent showing no changes to barrel). On the frame below the chamber, there is the S/N “8239” and that curving script type marking almost like an “Infinity” mark. Inside the frame (machined out area), forward of the chamber, there are two marks which appear to be a “W” and possibly a “N” or inverted “V”. Magazines: One with S/N “8239” and “P”; the other is S/N “9969”, and what appears to be a letter “h” in cursive script. Both magazines are bright metal, with tight grain (maple?) wooden base caps which are in very good condition, and the springs are in excellent condition. There are a few slight discoloration spots on the metal of the magazines. Holster: Black leather “Hard Shell” with inside flap pocket for the pistol tool. The pistol “Tool” is located in the top of the holster flap, and is marked “8239” and the letter “P”. The flap pocket is in excellent shape and is still tight to fasten down over the post (button). There are two (2) belt loops on the reverse, and a belt type fastener to hold the hard-shell top down. There is a leather strap on the inside of holster, with tab showing outside for lifting the pistol upward in the holster. The black ink markings on inside of top shows “R.B.D., Stuttgart, and 1939”. The indented markings on the reverse side of holster are: “HANSROMER, NEU ULM”. There are no other markings on the reverse side. The front edge of the holster has the additional magazine holder which is in excellent condition. All stitching is fully intact and tight. Any help in providing details about this particular gun, as well as the possible value of the entire set, will be greatly appreciated. If anyone in the Luger Forum is located in Indiana area (I am in Indianapolis), can you let me know how to contact you? I would be more than willing to bring the gun set to you so you can see what we have. THANKS! Attached Thumbnails

10-29-2013, 03:36 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	In several decades of being interested in Luger holsters I have never seen an interior marked this way this large. This might have been issued to the very elderly..they need large print. The initial do not spell out RAD. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-29-2013, 04:44 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	David..I wonder. Just because I have never seen it doesn't make it necessarily suspect. I actually like the mag and tool markings..P on Swiss mags mean Private sale. I don't know what this may mean. The serial on the BACK of a tool normally means Police but no Police indicators here. The matching mag, 8239 appears to be a late beech wood. It would be unusual but not un heard of to find even a quasi military pistol in .30 Luger. I think there are known examples of German Lugers in .30 for the railway. The ink stamp at first looks to be RAD but blown up it looks more like RBD? or RBO? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

10-29-2013, 06:40 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Need a better photo! Also looks like it might be P. a D. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

10-30-2013, 04:53 PM	#8
JesseMc User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Reply - Holster Marking (Close-Up) I really appreciate the feedback so far. I am posting-up another photo of the inside of the top flap of holster, showing the black markings inside. I hope this clears up any confusion over the markings. If anyone needs additional photos, just let me know. As an update, my friend attempted to get more info on how the gun was acquired by her Dad (last week). Unfortunately, due to age and previous stroke, communication with him is very difficult. He was in France and Germany later in 1944 (NOT D-Day) and into 1945 and "somehow" got the "set", including pistol, mags, and holster) and brought it home with him and parked it. I don't think there was much manufacturing in that area then, including repros. However, I don't mind you questioning authenticity. Unfortunately, that is what you have to do. I am simply trying to get as much info on the set as possible so that she can make informed decision should she decide to sell the set in the future. THANKS! Attached Thumbnails

10-29-2013, 03:22 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	You have a very interesting DWM 1920s "Alphabet Commercial" pistol, which, (if the holster markings are authentic), was once issued to the German Labor Corps. It has one matching magazine and a matching takedown tool, (again, if all original). The finish looks original and this is a very nice rig for someone who collects these mid wars German organization pistols. It would not be impossible to find a correct, matching holdopen lever for this pistol through members of this site. The RAD: http://www.german-helmets.com/RAD_MAIN.htm

10-29-2013, 04:37 PM	#4
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Were any commercial guns sold with serialized magazines and tools? Is the p on the magazine and tool supposed to be the suffix or does that have other meaning? I'm thinking that the organization re-numbered the mag. and tool to match. Normally I'd be yelling "foul" about now, but this one may have an unusual history. dju

10-30-2013, 01:49 PM	#7
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	wow there is nothing commercial about it except the crown n on the barrel and the wooden mag bases. Looks like an imperial that went to swiss with that p if I had to guess very interested to see what this is.

10-30-2013, 05:29 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	My memory is a little foggy on the subject but wasn't there railroad police organization something like Reichs Bahnhof Direktor? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

11-03-2013, 07:12 PM	#10
JesseMc User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	First Post - DWM 30 Cal (Added Photos) I just read some things about "Stock Lugs", but not sure if that helps anything with my friends' DWM 30 Caliber set. I am uploading additional photos: (1) Front of frame markings; and (2) Two photos of what I believe you guys are calling Stock Lugs. I am not sure if the Stock Lugs (or marks at front of frame) helps to confirm previous answer about our gun being a "mid-1920's Commerical - Alphabet gun". Also, does anyone care to speculate as to how a mid-1920's gun may have been paired with this 1939 Hard Shell holster marked R.A.D. and Stuttgart? Someone has mentioned the letters may be for "Reichs Bahnoff Deutschland" or Railroad Police. As mentioned before, I really appreciate the help with this project. THANKS! Attached Thumbnails

11-03-2013, 08:07 PM	#11
JesseMc User Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	First Post - DWM 30 Cal (Additional Gun Markings) I just noticed another mark on the 30 Caliber DWM Luger set that I missed previously. On the left side of the frame, somewhat superimposed at Serial Number, is another "Crown" and "N". I am not sure if this helps in confirming the 'Mid-1920's Commerical - Alphabet" or not. Additionally, this photo shows the "Round in Chamber" indicator (Geladen) which is why I took the initial photo - I just did not see the Crown and N in that shot before. If anyone needs any additional information or specific photos, please don't hesitate to ask and I will respond. THANKS! Attached Thumbnails

11-03-2013, 08:17 PM	#12
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The Crown/N is a typical, commercial Nitro proof and correct for your pistol

11-04-2013, 07:08 AM	#13
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	I just wanted to tell you that, to me, you've got quite a nice rig. __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.