Help with 1906 Navy

erdikler · 03-19-2014, 11:19 AM

Dear all,
I am considering to acquire this old sailor but I cannot be sure about its condition. The gun seems to have its original blue and in a good condition with the exeption a little to much pitted bore and almost total loss of blue on front grip strap. And also, the breech block seems to have been replaced or refinished since the proof mark (crown without M) faded or missing. Here are some pictures, apoligies for the low quality of the pictures but the these are the only ones I could get from the owner. Any opinion highly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

erdikler · 03-19-2014, 11:20 AM

cont'd

mrerick · 03-19-2014, 11:32 AM

All these pictures have soft focus that obscures the detail of the markings and surfaces.

I'm not a Navy expert, but I doubt that they could help you much without proper detail visible.

While this one could be right as they come, these Navy variations are faked reasonably often. I would not buy one without being able to verify it with someone familiar with Navy details.

There is a Navy serial number list available. What is the SN? I see the end of it as "?077a" from what I can figure out in the pictures.

In your third from the last picture, there seems to be quite a bit of finish variation between the breech block and the DWM marked forward toggle.

erdikler · 03-19-2014, 11:41 AM

The serial number is 977 a and it has W.K. "Werft Kiel" stamped. You are right about the finish variation, which makes me think of a breech block replacement?

Norme · 03-19-2014, 11:45 AM

Hi Eymen, Welcome to the forum. I don't see any obvious red flags in the photos provided, the finish does appear to be original. Before buying this gun, however, I advise you to insist on more and better photos. A clear, well lit shot of the left side of the breech block would be a start, in addition to the M firing proof it should have the last two digits of the serial number. Do all the other serial numbers match? I don't see the grip safety in the photos. I read the gun's serial number as 977a, is that correct?
Regards, Norm
P.S. What is the number below the W.K stamp?

erdikler · 03-19-2014, 11:58 AM

Dear Norm, Thank you very much. Yes, the serial number reads 977 a and the breech block has the last two digits of 77. Is it normal that the M proof is missing, though? All the numbers are matching other than the grips and magazine. The reason you cannot see the grip safety is that it has a broken spring and therefore it sits on the frame. I will ask the seller about the number below W.K and for a better picture of the breech block as you advised. Thanks again.
Best regards,

Eymen

Ron Wood · 03-19-2014, 12:00 PM

I am pretty sure I can see a grip safety in the first photo but it is flat against the grip. Either a broken safety spring or more likely incorrectly assembled.

Dang, I typed too slow again

erdikler · 03-19-2014, 12:05 PM

erdikler · 03-20-2014, 09:51 AM

some more pictures.

Question is: is it normal that the proof mark on breech block is absent on a 1906 navy?

Best regards and that you all in advance

Norme · 03-20-2014, 10:25 AM

Hi Eymen, No, it's not normal. The Navy crown firing proof was stamped at three locations, the left sides of the barrel, receiver and breechblock, when the gun passed proof testing. If it's not on the breech block then it was either removed or the breech block is not original to the gun.
Regards, Norm

erdikler · 03-20-2014, 12:13 PM

Hi Norm, thanks for the info, your input proves that the gun was fired a lot, breaking the breech block, which in turn explains the avarage to poor state of the bore. Pity though, otherwise this piece would be a fine example if it were all matching. The asking price of approx. $ 5.000 is then way to much for a shooter.
Regards,
Eymen

CAP Black · 03-20-2014, 09:59 PM

Yes, way too much; at least double fair price - IMHO. Hope the experts give you a more reliable response.
Jack

03-19-2014, 11:19 AM	#1
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts	Help with 1906 Navy Dear all, I am considering to acquire this old sailor but I cannot be sure about its condition. The gun seems to have its original blue and in a good condition with the exeption a little to much pitted bore and almost total loss of blue on front grip strap. And also, the breech block seems to have been replaced or refinished since the proof mark (crown without M) faded or missing. Here are some pictures, apoligies for the low quality of the pictures but the these are the only ones I could get from the owner. Any opinion highly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Attached Thumbnails

03-19-2014, 11:20 AM	#2
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts	cont'd Attached Thumbnails

03-19-2014, 11:32 AM	#3
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	All these pictures have soft focus that obscures the detail of the markings and surfaces. I'm not a Navy expert, but I doubt that they could help you much without proper detail visible. While this one could be right as they come, these Navy variations are faked reasonably often. I would not buy one without being able to verify it with someone familiar with Navy details. There is a Navy serial number list available. What is the SN? I see the end of it as "?077a" from what I can figure out in the pictures. In your third from the last picture, there seems to be quite a bit of finish variation between the breech block and the DWM marked forward toggle. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-19-2014, 12:00 PM	#7
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I am pretty sure I can see a grip safety in the first photo but it is flat against the grip. Either a broken safety spring or more likely incorrectly assembled. Dang, I typed too slow again __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-20-2014, 09:51 AM	#9
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts	some more pictures. Question is: is it normal that the proof mark on breech block is absent on a 1906 navy? Best regards and that you all in advance Attached Thumbnails

03-19-2014, 11:41 AM	#4
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts	The serial number is 977 a and it has W.K. "Werft Kiel" stamped. You are right about the finish variation, which makes me think of a breech block replacement?

03-19-2014, 11:45 AM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Eymen, Welcome to the forum. I don't see any obvious red flags in the photos provided, the finish does appear to be original. Before buying this gun, however, I advise you to insist on more and better photos. A clear, well lit shot of the left side of the breech block would be a start, in addition to the M firing proof it should have the last two digits of the serial number. Do all the other serial numbers match? I don't see the grip safety in the photos. I read the gun's serial number as 977a, is that correct? Regards, Norm P.S. What is the number below the W.K stamp?

03-19-2014, 11:58 AM	#6
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts	Dear Norm, Thank you very much. Yes, the serial number reads 977 a and the breech block has the last two digits of 77. Is it normal that the M proof is missing, though? All the numbers are matching other than the grips and magazine. The reason you cannot see the grip safety is that it has a broken spring and therefore it sits on the frame. I will ask the seller about the number below W.K and for a better picture of the breech block as you advised. Thanks again. Best regards, Eymen

03-19-2014, 12:05 PM	#8
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts

03-20-2014, 10:25 AM	#10
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Eymen, No, it's not normal. The Navy crown firing proof was stamped at three locations, the left sides of the barrel, receiver and breechblock, when the gun passed proof testing. If it's not on the breech block then it was either removed or the breech block is not original to the gun. Regards, Norm

03-20-2014, 12:13 PM	#11
erdikler User Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 14 Thanks: 1 Thanked 13 Times in 3 Posts	Hi Norm, thanks for the info, your input proves that the gun was fired a lot, breaking the breech block, which in turn explains the avarage to poor state of the bore. Pity though, otherwise this piece would be a fine example if it were all matching. The asking price of approx. $ 5.000 is then way to much for a shooter. Regards, Eymen

03-20-2014, 09:59 PM	#12
CAP Black User Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Fairmont, WV Right here in Mountaineer country and God's country Posts: 767 Thanks: 100 Thanked 168 Times in 96 Posts	Yes, way too much; at least double fair price - IMHO. Hope the experts give you a more reliable response. Jack