New P08 Luger Owner, Many Questions About a Refinished Shooter

Johhny · 08-11-2015, 11:25 PM

I was making the rounds at the local gun stores (California), and was surprised to find a nice looking Luger with a tag reading "$650" on it, and nothing else. Through the case, I looked at the bore, and saw that it was indeed a 9mm, and not a .22 clone or .30 Luger model.

Thinking that the tag must be from another gun, I asked to look at it, and confirmed that it was a consignment, and indeed only listed for $650. The store owner told me that the gun is mismatched, and had been refinished, so there is very little collector value in it. That's fine by me, I just want to have an affordable Luger to shoot! (possibly in USPSA or IDPA to be funny)

Upon closer inspection, the Luger appears to be a 1917 DWM, serial 1xxx. The refinish is a matte blue, and looks a little rough, but cosmetically it looks nicer to me than a worn original finish. That is perfectly fine by me for the price, as I plan on shooting it a lot, and letting others shoot it a lot. Also, I won't be worried about wearing it out by running it quickly from a kydex holster I plan on making.

All numbers seem to match, except possibly the barrel, which I couldn't quite read in the dim store lighting without a magnifying glass. There also appears to be an import mark on the bottom of the barrel, which I also could not read at the moment. However, the bore is bright with sharp rifling.

The store owner is a cool guy, and he let me buy the gun for a flat $700 out the door, giving me a $32 discount off the $732 total with tax and fees.

Here are some photos:

So, how did I do for $700? Did I get ripped off? Did I score a sweet deal? Did I pay the average?

All the numbers except for the sideplate and barrel appear to match. The magazine appears to be of WW2 vintage, and the vendor believes that the old magazine serial number was ground down, and the current serial number was stamped over it.

The magazine also appears like it may have a modified baseplate. The baseplate is aluminum, and appears to have a pin driven through the circular portion to secure it to the magazine body. A disassembly video of a modern MecGar magazine shows that the modern mags use 2 pins that go through the rectangular portion of the baseplate.

Also, when the magazine is seated, the circular portion of the magazine rests about .5 cm below the circular cutout on the frame. The magazine can be held up into the circular cutout, but does not stay there. Is this normal magazine fit?

The sideplate appears to have "81" crossed out, and either a "C 5", "G 5", or "6 5" stamped below it.

I can't quite read the stamping beneath the barrel, but it appears to say "G C S A PENT SAUNT N", with an older crown over "U" proof mark, and a number "653"

The receiver appears to be cut for an artiller Luger sight, just above the 1917 date. I am wondering whether the rebarrel was done by a military, or a commercial entity. I know that some artillery Lugers had their long barrels replaced with 4" barrels following WWI.

Can anyone shed some light on this gun? I am also asking Calguns if they know anything.

I look forward to shooting this gun a lot, although falling into the madness of collecting many Luger variations will have to wait for the forseeable future. I hope I can be a productive member of this forum nonetheless!

Thank you!

Dwight Gruber · 08-12-2015, 12:34 AM

Congratulations, you did quite well for $700. In brief, this is a P08 assembled by the East German Deutsche Volkspolizei in June of 1953. It has quite a story to tell, and if you post good, sharp closeup pictures of all its markings we can decipher it.

--Dwight

ithacaartist · 08-12-2015, 12:44 AM

Welcome to the forum, Johnny, you did just fine, right out of the gate!

The mag is probably an FXO, of WWII vintage, and its aluminum, centrally-pinned bottom is absolutely correct. These are among the best performing mags made and worth around a couple hundred if in good shape. Since it is not period correct to your gun, you could sell it and offset the purchase price even more, if you prefer to put the two hundred into a couple of Mec Gar mags and the rest into your pocket.

I'm not sure what your variety of stampings means, exactly, but the markings guys will join the fray here eventually, so I look forward to what they might have to say.

I think I recognize the reproduction grips, as made by a concern in Illinois, IIRC. But I'm spacing on their name right now...

I also have a 1917 DWM that started life as an Arty, but is additionally property-stamped 1920.

Lugerdoc · 08-12-2015, 11:35 AM

J, By 1917 both DWM & Erfurt were using excess LPO8 receivers to make standard PO8s, so I doubt that your pistol was ever an Artillery model. I agree that it is a DDR rework with one of their new C/n marked barrels and rear toggle link. Also the off-center pinned mag is also an East German rework, so would not count of getting more than $100 if sold separately. TH

alanint · 08-12-2015, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

Congratulations, you did quite well for $700. In brief, this is a P08 assembled by the East German Deutsche Volkspolizei in June of 1953. It has quite a story to tell, and if you post good, sharp closeup pictures of all its markings we can decipher it.

--Dwight

Dwight, how did you determine this fairly precise date? What am I missing?

Dwight Gruber · 08-12-2015, 02:05 PM

The barrel number 653, code for month 6 (June), 1953.

--Dwight

K.Wilhelm · 08-12-2015, 03:23 PM

As already stated, you did real well, particularly if it shoots! If you have any magazine-related problems, get an aftermarket MecGar mag. Bill

Johhny · 08-12-2015, 08:47 PM

Thank you for all your responses! I am learning more and more about Vopo Lugers, which I did not expect my Luger to be, as it was missing the typical Vopo grips. I am pleased to hear that the refinish and parts reworking were done officially by a national entity, rather than an importer or an end user.

Here are some additional photos with better views of the markings.

The proofs near the receiver serial appear to be a Crown over "U", and an Eagle. There is a sunburst below the takedown lever.

I noticed that "50" is stamped on the bottoms of the toggle links, which does not match the "65" stamps on the top of the toggle links. Are the "65" stamps due to force matching by the Vopo armorers? This also makes me question if the DWM toggle is correct for the receiver. Do the proof marks on the receiver side opposite of the serial number identify the receiver as being DWM or Erfurt?

What can be deciphered from the marks on the front of the frame?

Finally, the magazine is indeed an FXO with a '37 waffenmamt. There is an electropenciled "2655" above the P08 marking, as well.

I understand that the centrally pinned floorplate is correct for a Vopo magazine, but my floorplate also appears shinier than examples I have seen in photos elsewhere on this forum. The seller suggested that the floorplate may have been altered by an American owner, and that the serial on the floorplate matches the receiver serial due to owner alteration.

The magazine floorplate has serial "1165" with a "2" above it, and I only have this one magazine. Is this indeed a Vopo matched magazine to my gun, and how much value does it add to the Vopo Luger as a whole if it is authentic?

Again, thank you all for your help!

Edward Tinker · 08-12-2015, 09:13 PM

visible numbers would be the same or crossed out by vopo - numbers you can not see such as under the toggle are 'workers' marks, which pretty much could mean anything and meant something internally but not something we can track down.

You haven't shown the base of the magazine, show all sides, show bottom from a couple of angles... from what you said, it was a police mag (the number 2) almost likely.

Ed

mrerick · 08-12-2015, 09:17 PM

Take your photos in shaded sunlight, and shut off the flash. You'll get much better photos with flat illumination.

Use a tripod and the closeup setting of a digital camera. Use the self timer to eliminate camera shake.

Marc

08-11-2015, 11:25 PM	#1
Johhny New User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New P08 Luger Owner, Many Questions About a Refinished Shooter I was making the rounds at the local gun stores (California), and was surprised to find a nice looking Luger with a tag reading "$650" on it, and nothing else. Through the case, I looked at the bore, and saw that it was indeed a 9mm, and not a .22 clone or .30 Luger model. Thinking that the tag must be from another gun, I asked to look at it, and confirmed that it was a consignment, and indeed only listed for $650. The store owner told me that the gun is mismatched, and had been refinished, so there is very little collector value in it. That's fine by me, I just want to have an affordable Luger to shoot! (possibly in USPSA or IDPA to be funny) Upon closer inspection, the Luger appears to be a 1917 DWM, serial 1xxx. The refinish is a matte blue, and looks a little rough, but cosmetically it looks nicer to me than a worn original finish. That is perfectly fine by me for the price, as I plan on shooting it a lot, and letting others shoot it a lot. Also, I won't be worried about wearing it out by running it quickly from a kydex holster I plan on making. All numbers seem to match, except possibly the barrel, which I couldn't quite read in the dim store lighting without a magnifying glass. There also appears to be an import mark on the bottom of the barrel, which I also could not read at the moment. However, the bore is bright with sharp rifling. The store owner is a cool guy, and he let me buy the gun for a flat $700 out the door, giving me a $32 discount off the $732 total with tax and fees. Here are some photos: So, how did I do for $700? Did I get ripped off? Did I score a sweet deal? Did I pay the average? All the numbers except for the sideplate and barrel appear to match. The magazine appears to be of WW2 vintage, and the vendor believes that the old magazine serial number was ground down, and the current serial number was stamped over it. The magazine also appears like it may have a modified baseplate. The baseplate is aluminum, and appears to have a pin driven through the circular portion to secure it to the magazine body. A disassembly video of a modern MecGar magazine shows that the modern mags use 2 pins that go through the rectangular portion of the baseplate. Also, when the magazine is seated, the circular portion of the magazine rests about .5 cm below the circular cutout on the frame. The magazine can be held up into the circular cutout, but does not stay there. Is this normal magazine fit? The sideplate appears to have "81" crossed out, and either a "C 5", "G 5", or "6 5" stamped below it. I can't quite read the stamping beneath the barrel, but it appears to say "G C S A PENT SAUNT N", with an older crown over "U" proof mark, and a number "653" The receiver appears to be cut for an artiller Luger sight, just above the 1917 date. I am wondering whether the rebarrel was done by a military, or a commercial entity. I know that some artillery Lugers had their long barrels replaced with 4" barrels following WWI. Can anyone shed some light on this gun? I am also asking Calguns if they know anything. I look forward to shooting this gun a lot, although falling into the madness of collecting many Luger variations will have to wait for the forseeable future. I hope I can be a productive member of this forum nonetheless! Thank you!

08-12-2015, 12:44 AM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,346 Thanks: 7,277 Thanked 2,578 Times in 1,365 Posts	Welcome to the forum, Johnny, you did just fine, right out of the gate! The mag is probably an FXO, of WWII vintage, and its aluminum, centrally-pinned bottom is absolutely correct. These are among the best performing mags made and worth around a couple hundred if in good shape. Since it is not period correct to your gun, you could sell it and offset the purchase price even more, if you prefer to put the two hundred into a couple of Mec Gar mags and the rest into your pocket. I'm not sure what your variety of stampings means, exactly, but the markings guys will join the fray here eventually, so I look forward to what they might have to say. I think I recognize the reproduction grips, as made by a concern in Illinois, IIRC. But I'm spacing on their name right now... I also have a 1917 DWM that started life as an Arty, but is additionally property-stamped 1920. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-12-2015, 11:35 AM	#4
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	J, By 1917 both DWM & Erfurt were using excess LPO8 receivers to make standard PO8s, so I doubt that your pistol was ever an Artillery model. I agree that it is a DDR rework with one of their new C/n marked barrels and rear toggle link. Also the off-center pinned mag is also an East German rework, so would not count of getting more than $100 if sold separately. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-12-2015, 03:23 PM	#7
K.Wilhelm User Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South Central Colorado Posts: 215 Thanks: 45 Thanked 109 Times in 66 Posts	Shooter luger As already stated, you did real well, particularly if it shoots! If you have any magazine-related problems, get an aftermarket MecGar mag. Bill __________________ NRA Endowment Life member Proud veteran of the Naval Security Group

08-12-2015, 08:47 PM	#8
Johhny New User Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you for all your responses! I am learning more and more about Vopo Lugers, which I did not expect my Luger to be, as it was missing the typical Vopo grips. I am pleased to hear that the refinish and parts reworking were done officially by a national entity, rather than an importer or an end user. Here are some additional photos with better views of the markings. The proofs near the receiver serial appear to be a Crown over "U", and an Eagle. There is a sunburst below the takedown lever. I noticed that "50" is stamped on the bottoms of the toggle links, which does not match the "65" stamps on the top of the toggle links. Are the "65" stamps due to force matching by the Vopo armorers? This also makes me question if the DWM toggle is correct for the receiver. Do the proof marks on the receiver side opposite of the serial number identify the receiver as being DWM or Erfurt? What can be deciphered from the marks on the front of the frame? Finally, the magazine is indeed an FXO with a '37 waffenmamt. There is an electropenciled "2655" above the P08 marking, as well. I understand that the centrally pinned floorplate is correct for a Vopo magazine, but my floorplate also appears shinier than examples I have seen in photos elsewhere on this forum. The seller suggested that the floorplate may have been altered by an American owner, and that the serial on the floorplate matches the receiver serial due to owner alteration. The magazine floorplate has serial "1165" with a "2" above it, and I only have this one magazine. Is this indeed a Vopo matched magazine to my gun, and how much value does it add to the Vopo Luger as a whole if it is authentic? Again, thank you all for your help! Last edited by Johhny; 08-12-2015 at 09:56 PM.

08-12-2015, 12:34 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	Congratulations, you did quite well for $700. In brief, this is a P08 assembled by the East German Deutsche Volkspolizei in June of 1953. It has quite a story to tell, and if you post good, sharp closeup pictures of all its markings we can decipher it. --Dwight

08-12-2015, 02:05 PM	#6
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	The barrel number 653, code for month 6 (June), 1953. --Dwight

08-12-2015, 09:13 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	visible numbers would be the same or crossed out by vopo - numbers you can not see such as under the toggle are 'workers' marks, which pretty much could mean anything and meant something internally but not something we can track down. You haven't shown the base of the magazine, show all sides, show bottom from a couple of angles... from what you said, it was a police mag (the number 2) almost likely. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

08-12-2015, 09:17 PM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,909 Thanks: 1,374 Thanked 3,110 Times in 1,510 Posts	Take your photos in shaded sunlight, and shut off the flash. You'll get much better photos with flat illumination. Use a tripod and the closeup setting of a digital camera. Use the self timer to eliminate camera shake. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.