Why the Lanyard Staple?

headspace · 06-22-2003, 10:51 PM

I am brand new to this forum, although I've been collecting C&R for about ten years. I finally bought my first Luger, a 1938 s/42 from Ralph Shattuck last week. I'm waiting for the BBT.
But while I wait, I'd like to pose this question: I read with great interest the thread on stock lugs. So now, why do all the military P-08's have that lanyard staple (it's not really a "loop") on the back of the grip? I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a German soldier with a lanyard attached to his pistol. I have never seen a Wehrmacht, or Luftwaffe, or Reichsmarine, or Polezei lanyard in any collection, auction, or museum display. Any thoughts?

Edward Tinker · 06-22-2003, 11:18 PM

You can find this discussed a couple of times here.

Lanyards were used, but you are more likely to see some light rope tied to the gun!

So, being a military gun, they must have thought you'd better have it, but you are right, you sure don't see it very often.

BTW, WELCOME to the forum!

Ed

lugerholsterrepair · 06-22-2003, 11:49 PM

headspace, I have dozens of photo's of troops employing Luger lanyards. They were issued by the Military authorities during both World wars. The Germans issued them to Stosstrup troops, motorcycle troops as well as the Cavalry.

Ed is right, quite a few troops that wanted to attach their pistol, for obvious reasons, used whatever was handy if they did not have an issue lanyard, such as string or another favorite, the bread bag strap. Many soldiers also used the trigger guard as well.

One of the better known European collectors traveled throughout Europe for me photographing Luger lanyards found in collections there.

I have only seen four authentic Luger lanyards in the U.S. in the last five or six years. I know who owns them all.

Two recently appeared in eBay and were shown scant attention. It is a really fascinating accoutrement that escapes many otherwise keen eyed collectors.

I suspect that many did not survive long after the wars because the round leather strap they were made from was pretty close to the size of sewing maching belt ,so if Frau Soldat got ahold of Pappas lanyard it could metamorphasize.

Same with the wooden molds used for molding all sorts of holsters. They are rare because they found their way into the kitchen stove, is my idea. Jerry Burney

Jim Keenan · 06-23-2003, 10:19 PM

Lanyard loops were intended primarily for the cavalry. The trooper had a loop around his neck with a sping hook to which the gun could be attached. The U.S. Model 1911 and its early magazines also had loops that were used the same way.

The reason is obvious. If an infantry officer dropped his pistol, he could pick it up. If a cavalryman dropped his in combat, he was unarmed. So it was a good idea to tie the guns (and magazines) to him, even if he did end up bearing some resemblance to a maypole.

Lanyards were sometimes used by others, like military police, so the lanyard loop remained even after horse cavalry was not longer of real significance in war.

Jim

lugerholsterrepair · 06-24-2003, 12:59 AM

Jim, Your reasoning is sound on the face of things but wrong in actual application. I suspect you have never been in the Infantry in actual combat or you would not make such broad statements.

In fact one of the major recipients of lanyard issues in WW1 were to Stosstrup soldiers in the trenches. These rough fellows had the job of raiding parties at night in no-mans land. Light was generally and preferably non-existant until a very pistol fired a flare. Then you had better not move to pick up your dropped pistol or risk taking fire. The environment for these Infantry soldiers was extreme to say the least. Shell holes, mud, barbed wire, dead bodies, unexploded artillery shells and opposing raiding parties are but a few of the difficulties they faced. They were armed with the Luger pistol because a rifle would be too cumbersome and when the opportunity came to take a prisoner for interogation the pistol on a lanyard was quite handy. So, you can see that simply dropping a pistol in these circumstances was in all likelyhood, losing it forever.

For those of you who are students of WW1, what modern development caused the Cavalry's demise?

Jerry Burney

Roadkill · 06-24-2003, 08:14 AM

Combination of the machine gun and barbed wire.

rk

Tim · 06-24-2003, 10:18 AM

I would have said the tank, or more broadly, mechanized infantry.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-24-2003, 10:34 AM

Roadkill is correct. Principally it was the development of the Maxim machine gun. Barbed wire was used mostly in the trenches and the trenches came about when major movements were prevented. Cavalry moved in the open where machine guns were very effective in tearing them apart.

The early tanks were used in the trenches to tear out barbed wire and use their on board machine guns to shoot down the terrified infantry in front of them who would either attack the metal monster or break and run. Attack with rifles or machine guns was inefective due to armor plate. Ah, The joys of modern warfare! Jerry Burney

Navy · 06-24-2003, 10:30 PM

Jerry,
Some day we should walk the low fields of the Somme together and visit Fort Doumont; the W.W.I killing grounds are largely off the beaten track. I spent two weeks with my sons who were teens then (One a blooded soldier now) walking those fields. The trenches are still present in many areas and the waste of battle:shell fragments, engineer pickets, and the occasional human remain are still easily found.
Our war was pretty tough but nothing like the slaughter of 14-18.
Tom A.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-25-2003, 10:56 AM

Tom, That would indeed be an Honour I could only hope to do one day. To do so with a fellow comrade in arms would be a pleasure.

You are right. Vietnam was a party compared with what WW1 troopers went through. I collect books that were written by infantrymen who told of their experiences there. It would have tested the best of us.

Col. Anthony B Herbert wrote an excellent book about just this subject called Soldier. If one wants to learn a little about the Korean and VN conflict this is a must read. He was a brigade commander of the 173rd Airborne. He was the one who instigated night fighting that the 173rd was so succesful with. Jerry Burney

Heinz · 06-25-2003, 09:16 PM

My grandfather fought in Flanders as a matrossen machine gunner. He spoke little of it. Hated anything French and chickens. He did speak once of the upsetting task of machine gunning cavalry: "It is a shame to kill horses because the riders are stupid" He also told a great story about the scars he carried on his back. I asked him about them once and he said "Willie, they always chained the gunner to gun in tight spots so you wouldn't give up the gun." I asked if the scars came when he was overrun and he said,"No, those are from my Luger, trying to shoot the chain off my leg." I do not beilieve it was true, but it was the wisdom he wanted to pass on. Got me interested in Lugers.

lugerholsterrepair · 06-26-2003, 12:06 AM

Heinz, Fascinating remembrance! I suspect that there is more truth in what your Grandfather told you than you might think....

There are many accounts of the suffering horses experienced in both WW1 and WW2. The Germans used thousands of them in both conflicts.

When Hitler threatned to invade Great Britain by Sea it was projected that the German forces would bring 60,000 horses with them.Of course, had he done so it would have resulted in catastrophic losses. The Germans had only scraped together barges to use that would have been towed by tugs. Nothing like the U.S. capabilities for beach landings. Even in 1940 the Germans relied heavily on horses to draw ammunition carts and artillery. Jerry Burney

The Wizard · 06-26-2003, 01:17 AM

Does anyone make a reproduction Luger lanyard or has a pattern a person could use to construct one?

Ron Wood · 06-26-2003, 01:33 AM

The guy that posted just before you...lugerholsterrepair...makes fantastic and authentic Luger lanyards. He has researched lanyards extensively and probably knows more about them than anybody.

ViggoG · 06-26-2003, 02:33 AM

Achtung, Ron,

I have a story of the western front WW-1,
as told to me by my father, A machine gun Mechanic with the AEF, somewhere in France.

I cannot relate the actual battle, but the story is of the conflict of two soldiers, with near identical first names, 1 American and 1 German sniper, and the pure guts required to survive in combat.

It is quite lengthy but, I think that it would go well here because of the topic matter.

It may be a slight bit controversial because the names of both soldiers are revealed and are not fictional.

Would you like to have a look at it, off thread, to see if it should be used here.

I know that Ed. will want to have a copy.

"The best WWI soldier portrait" bothers me because it was a man such as this that my Father met in battle.

ViggoG

Edward Tinker · 06-26-2003, 11:40 AM

Brother ViggoG, yes send me the story! Although I don't see why it couldn't be printed in the discussion forum? Top Secret is de-classified after 50 years afterall

Ed

Ron Wood · 06-26-2003, 11:48 AM

Viggo,
I responded to your private message.

max2cam · 07-13-2003, 12:31 PM

Reading a book about Heinz Guderian right now.

Early Panzer advocates well knew of the need for an all-mechanized army including tracked or all-wheel-drive support vehicles and to get rid of the horses. But the German economy was so weak that Hitler had to rebuild his armed forces on the cheap which resulted in an army much weaker than it appeared due to Goebbels' efficient propaganda including the term Blitzkrieg, which was just as much necessity as it was technique.

Hitler preferred to build new divisions rather than properly modernize existing divisions. Thus the horse remained way more important than it should have and many Germans knew it. Better tank and other weapon designs were delayed or never built due to lack of means.

Hitler thought all along he could bluff his way to victory and avoid a large war. Many German generals were "horrified" at that notion due to the great risk. In the end they were proved correct. The earliest they would have been ready for a war in the East was 1943.

Strange to think today that the guy (Hitler) who is blamed and condemned as a total war monger, was probably the last guy who really wanted a big war...but got one anyway.

Doubs · 07-13-2003, 12:58 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair:
Col. Anthony B Herbert wrote an excellent book about just this subject called Soldier. If one wants to learn a little about the Korean and VN conflict this is a must read. He was a brigade commander of the 173rd Airborne. He was the one who instigated night fighting that the 173rd was so succesful with. Jerry Burney<hr /></blockquote>Jerry, I read Herbert's book years ago and was impressed. He seems to have much in common with today's military critic, Col. David Hackworth... both have extensive combat experience and both saw the futility of Viet Nam long before the "leaders" did. Herbert was persecuted and an attempt was made on his life because he tried to have certain atrosities in VN investigated. Your comments about night fighting reminded me of Herbert's success using Starlight equipment and the subsequent attempt of the VC to acquire their own through the South VN Army. As I recall, Herbert's unit had all of the equipment and refused to give any up because he knew where it would go. I believe my memory is correct here.

Heydrich · 07-14-2003, 06:45 PM

>what modern development caused the Cavalry's demise?

Actually, it was the Swiss pikemen of the 16th century that began the real fast downward spiral of cavalry. (Check out the Battle of Sterling Bridge in Braveheart for a refresher on this.) The Swiss ravaged the romantic French horsemen during this time, and they have had independence ever since. Neutrality is a misleading term for the Swiss, they’ll kill anyone.

06-22-2003, 10:51 PM	#1
headspace New User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Virginia's Northern Neck Posts: 3 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Why the Lanyard Staple? I am brand new to this forum, although I've been collecting C&R for about ten years. I finally bought my first Luger, a 1938 s/42 from Ralph Shattuck last week. I'm waiting for the BBT. But while I wait, I'd like to pose this question: I read with great interest the thread on stock lugs. So now, why do all the military P-08's have that lanyard staple (it's not really a "loop") on the back of the grip? I don't think I've ever seen a picture of a German soldier with a lanyard attached to his pistol. I have never seen a Wehrmacht, or Luftwaffe, or Reichsmarine, or Polezei lanyard in any collection, auction, or museum display. Any thoughts?

06-22-2003, 11:18 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	You can find this discussed a couple of times here. Lanyards were used, but you are more likely to see some light rope tied to the gun! So, being a military gun, they must have thought you'd better have it, but you are right, you sure don't see it very often. BTW, WELCOME to the forum! Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-22-2003, 11:49 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	headspace, I have dozens of photo's of troops employing Luger lanyards. They were issued by the Military authorities during both World wars. The Germans issued them to Stosstrup troops, motorcycle troops as well as the Cavalry. Ed is right, quite a few troops that wanted to attach their pistol, for obvious reasons, used whatever was handy if they did not have an issue lanyard, such as string or another favorite, the bread bag strap. Many soldiers also used the trigger guard as well. One of the better known European collectors traveled throughout Europe for me photographing Luger lanyards found in collections there. I have only seen four authentic Luger lanyards in the U.S. in the last five or six years. I know who owns them all. Two recently appeared in eBay and were shown scant attention. It is a really fascinating accoutrement that escapes many otherwise keen eyed collectors. I suspect that many did not survive long after the wars because the round leather strap they were made from was pretty close to the size of sewing maching belt ,so if Frau Soldat got ahold of Pappas lanyard it could metamorphasize. Same with the wooden molds used for molding all sorts of holsters. They are rare because they found their way into the kitchen stove, is my idea. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-24-2003, 12:59 AM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Jim, Your reasoning is sound on the face of things but wrong in actual application. I suspect you have never been in the Infantry in actual combat or you would not make such broad statements. In fact one of the major recipients of lanyard issues in WW1 were to Stosstrup soldiers in the trenches. These rough fellows had the job of raiding parties at night in no-mans land. Light was generally and preferably non-existant until a very pistol fired a flare. Then you had better not move to pick up your dropped pistol or risk taking fire. The environment for these Infantry soldiers was extreme to say the least. Shell holes, mud, barbed wire, dead bodies, unexploded artillery shells and opposing raiding parties are but a few of the difficulties they faced. They were armed with the Luger pistol because a rifle would be too cumbersome and when the opportunity came to take a prisoner for interogation the pistol on a lanyard was quite handy. So, you can see that simply dropping a pistol in these circumstances was in all likelyhood, losing it forever. For those of you who are students of WW1, what modern development caused the Cavalry's demise? Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-24-2003, 10:18 AM	#7
Tim Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Great North Woods of Wisconsin Posts: 100 Thanks: 7 Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts	I would have said the tank, or more broadly, mechanized infantry. __________________ The intent of the second amendment was not to allow the private ownership of firearms. If it had been it would have said something like "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"...

06-23-2003, 10:19 PM	#4
Jim Keenan User Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 184 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Lanyard loops were intended primarily for the cavalry. The trooper had a loop around his neck with a sping hook to which the gun could be attached. The U.S. Model 1911 and its early magazines also had loops that were used the same way. The reason is obvious. If an infantry officer dropped his pistol, he could pick it up. If a cavalryman dropped his in combat, he was unarmed. So it was a good idea to tie the guns (and magazines) to him, even if he did end up bearing some resemblance to a maypole. Lanyards were sometimes used by others, like military police, so the lanyard loop remained even after horse cavalry was not longer of real significance in war. Jim

06-24-2003, 08:14 AM	#6
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Combination of the machine gun and barbed wire. rk

06-24-2003, 10:34 AM	#8
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Roadkill is correct. Principally it was the development of the Maxim machine gun. Barbed wire was used mostly in the trenches and the trenches came about when major movements were prevented. Cavalry moved in the open where machine guns were very effective in tearing them apart. The early tanks were used in the trenches to tear out barbed wire and use their on board machine guns to shoot down the terrified infantry in front of them who would either attack the metal monster or break and run. Attack with rifles or machine guns was inefective due to armor plate. Ah, The joys of modern warfare! Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-24-2003, 10:30 PM	#9
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Jerry, Some day we should walk the low fields of the Somme together and visit Fort Doumont; the W.W.I killing grounds are largely off the beaten track. I spent two weeks with my sons who were teens then (One a blooded soldier now) walking those fields. The trenches are still present in many areas and the waste of battle:shell fragments, engineer pickets, and the occasional human remain are still easily found. Our war was pretty tough but nothing like the slaughter of 14-18. Tom A.

06-25-2003, 10:56 AM	#10
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Tom, That would indeed be an Honour I could only hope to do one day. To do so with a fellow comrade in arms would be a pleasure. You are right. Vietnam was a party compared with what WW1 troopers went through. I collect books that were written by infantrymen who told of their experiences there. It would have tested the best of us. Col. Anthony B Herbert wrote an excellent book about just this subject called Soldier. If one wants to learn a little about the Korean and VN conflict this is a must read. He was a brigade commander of the 173rd Airborne. He was the one who instigated night fighting that the 173rd was so succesful with. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-25-2003, 09:16 PM	#11
Heinz User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Greenville SC Posts: 1,004 Thanks: 377 Thanked 410 Times in 180 Posts	My grandfather fought in Flanders as a matrossen machine gunner. He spoke little of it. Hated anything French and chickens. He did speak once of the upsetting task of machine gunning cavalry: "It is a shame to kill horses because the riders are stupid" He also told a great story about the scars he carried on his back. I asked him about them once and he said "Willie, they always chained the gunner to gun in tight spots so you wouldn't give up the gun." I asked if the scars came when he was overrun and he said,"No, those are from my Luger, trying to shoot the chain off my leg." I do not beilieve it was true, but it was the wisdom he wanted to pass on. Got me interested in Lugers.

06-26-2003, 12:06 AM	#12
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,771 Thanks: 4,922 Thanked 3,123 Times in 1,434 Posts	Heinz, Fascinating remembrance! I suspect that there is more truth in what your Grandfather told you than you might think.... There are many accounts of the suffering horses experienced in both WW1 and WW2. The Germans used thousands of them in both conflicts. When Hitler threatned to invade Great Britain by Sea it was projected that the German forces would bring 60,000 horses with them.Of course, had he done so it would have resulted in catastrophic losses. The Germans had only scraped together barges to use that would have been towed by tugs. Nothing like the U.S. capabilities for beach landings. Even in 1940 the Germans relied heavily on horses to draw ammunition carts and artillery. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

06-26-2003, 01:17 AM	#13
The Wizard User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 67 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Does anyone make a reproduction Luger lanyard or has a pattern a person could use to construct one? __________________ The Wizard Air Dropable AND Ground Recoverable Necat omnes! Deus suos agnoscet. The application of the proper amount of high explosives can solve any problem. War is an act of force and to the application of that force there is no limit! So say the philosophers (Carl von Clausewitz b 1780 d 1831) of war.

06-26-2003, 01:33 AM	#14
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	The guy that posted just before you...lugerholsterrepair...makes fantastic and authentic Luger lanyards. He has researched lanyards extensively and probably knows more about them than anybody. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

06-26-2003, 02:33 AM	#15
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Achtung, Ron, I have a story of the western front WW-1, as told to me by my father, A machine gun Mechanic with the AEF, somewhere in France. I cannot relate the actual battle, but the story is of the conflict of two soldiers, with near identical first names, 1 American and 1 German sniper, and the pure guts required to survive in combat. It is quite lengthy but, I think that it would go well here because of the topic matter. It may be a slight bit controversial because the names of both soldiers are revealed and are not fictional. Would you like to have a look at it, off thread, to see if it should be used here. I know that Ed. will want to have a copy. "The best WWI soldier portrait" bothers me because it was a man such as this that my Father met in battle. ViggoG

06-26-2003, 11:40 AM	#16
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,028 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Brother ViggoG, yes send me the story! Although I don't see why it couldn't be printed in the discussion forum? Top Secret is de-classified after 50 years afterall Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

06-26-2003, 11:48 AM	#17
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	Viggo, I responded to your private message. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

07-13-2003, 12:31 PM	#18
max2cam User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 97 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Reading a book about Heinz Guderian right now. Early Panzer advocates well knew of the need for an all-mechanized army including tracked or all-wheel-drive support vehicles and to get rid of the horses. But the German economy was so weak that Hitler had to rebuild his armed forces on the cheap which resulted in an army much weaker than it appeared due to Goebbels' efficient propaganda including the term Blitzkrieg, which was just as much necessity as it was technique. Hitler preferred to build new divisions rather than properly modernize existing divisions. Thus the horse remained way more important than it should have and many Germans knew it. Better tank and other weapon designs were delayed or never built due to lack of means. Hitler thought all along he could bluff his way to victory and avoid a large war. Many German generals were "horrified" at that notion due to the great risk. In the end they were proved correct. The earliest they would have been ready for a war in the East was 1943. Strange to think today that the guy (Hitler) who is blamed and condemned as a total war monger, was probably the last guy who really wanted a big war...but got one anyway.

07-13-2003, 12:58 PM	#19
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,695 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,677 Times in 551 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by lugerholsterrepair: <strong>Col. Anthony B Herbert wrote an excellent book about just this subject called Soldier. If one wants to learn a little about the Korean and VN conflict this is a must read. He was a brigade commander of the 173rd Airborne. He was the one who instigated night fighting that the 173rd was so succesful with. Jerry Burney</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Jerry, I read Herbert's book years ago and was impressed. He seems to have much in common with today's military critic, Col. David Hackworth... both have extensive combat experience and both saw the futility of Viet Nam long before the "leaders" did. Herbert was persecuted and an attempt was made on his life because he tried to have certain atrosities in VN investigated. Your comments about night fighting reminded me of Herbert's success using Starlight equipment and the subsequent attempt of the VC to acquire their own through the South VN Army. As I recall, Herbert's unit had all of the equipment and refused to give any up because he knew where it would go. I believe my memory is correct here.

07-14-2003, 06:45 PM	#20
Heydrich Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Oregon Posts: 181 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	>what modern development caused the Cavalry's demise? Actually, it was the Swiss pikemen of the 16th century that began the real fast downward spiral of cavalry. (Check out the Battle of Sterling Bridge in Braveheart for a refresher on this.) The Swiss ravaged the romantic French horsemen during this time, and they have had independence ever since. Neutrality is a misleading term for the Swiss, they’ll kill anyone.