Nice HK Refinish Study...

Pete Ebbink · 08-23-2005, 10:25 PM

Folks at Simpsons have a nice refinished HK for sale...nice piece to study...

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2780

drbuster · 08-24-2005, 01:17 AM

Bargain basement price for an HK these days, Pete!

Big Norm · 08-24-2005, 04:29 AM

At least he is honest enough to tell everyone that it has been restored. Some restorers are very good at their craft. We have a wide range of Luger lovers here. So, for some, this might not be a bad deal. There has been a lot of Krieghoffs restored. Finding one that hasn't been restored and knowing what to look for on a Krieghoff (especially the 'P' codes) can be a difficult. Its almost anything goes on the commercial HK's.
Big Norm

Navy · 08-24-2005, 07:45 AM

It is not a frequent occurrance that nice Krieghoffs are offered to the general public. Typically they are sold and traded among collectors who know one another personally and know the provenance of the guns well before any sale takes place.

I am ALWAYS leery when I see a Krieghoff FS in a public venue.

Tom A.

ken d · 08-24-2005, 06:01 PM

No mention of matching numbers in description.

Regards Ken D

Big Norm · 08-25-2005, 05:29 AM

I really have mixed emotions on restored Lugers. Sometimes, I believe that restorations are penalized too heavily. I also have to agree with Tom. When any Luger has been restored maybe it would be best to want to see the gun in person or buy from a person with a reliable return policy. With HK's , it would probably be best to REALLY study the books so that you would know what to expect on a restoration. There seems to be a lot of variations on them. Not many people have the wisdom of a JohnD who has the ability to detect a genuine HK thats merely been prettied up from a counterfeit.
Big Norm

Personally, I have never bought a gun from Simpson. But I have talked to him many times and he seems to be a real nice guy. He also has a fine reputation. So, if this gun turned out to be a real bummer, I think that he would take back the returned gun with no problem. But make sure that you are prepared when you call him to ask questions.
Big Norm

Navy · 08-25-2005, 07:50 AM

Unlike Norm,I have purchased many, many guns from Bob Simpson..in fact I just sent him a check in the low five figures. He is honest, forthright and a real pleasure to deal with. Note, I did not say he was a bargain. But his stuff has always been good and any misunderstandings were always remedied on the spot. Highly recommended.

Tom A.

Model 12 · 08-25-2005, 07:27 PM

Gents, I'll tell you straight up, bro. I would gladly trade up from my unmolested 37 S/42 to that restored Kreig, and not just because it is a Kreig. That thing is beautiful. Exactly what turns my crank...a minty looking strawed type pistol from the prewar era.

I certainly don't care that it is redone, assuming done properly, but that would look like a million bucks in my right hand down at the range. That is a work of art.

Love it, love it, love it. Wish I had waited for the "right" gun. That one would be it (too bad it's on hold). It's like a Level 5 engraved Black Diamond Trap in my hands showing the "Citori boys" how it was done back in the day!!!

thegundude · 08-25-2005, 07:57 PM

I was prepared to buy it but noticed that it's already on hold....

Rats, foiled again....

Besides, I've already decided that my next Luger will be something with a grip safety. But that Kreig might have changed that plan...

Very nice...

Lugerdoc · 08-26-2005, 09:46 AM

Being in the parts business, I have an opporturnity to sell to most of the well respected restorer. One of them here in the midwest who specializes in HKs, claims that he has refinished over 10% of the known serials shown in Gibson's book, so know what you are looking at. Th

Ron Smith · 08-26-2005, 02:18 PM

I don't think there is anything wrong with restoring a luger that in this condition. I see it as reconditioning or preserving a piece of history.

If a Luger is in bad condition, do to indifferent neglect, and can be restored. I believe it should be. Nothing is gained by leaving it alone. And I do believe that something is definitely lost in doing so.

On the other hand, if the pistol is in good condition (80%+) and just shows honest use and has been cared for. I feel that light wear or patina is part of that history. And should be left as is. And should'nt be restored or refinished. Just because the owner wants a pretty gun.

This is a 1914 DWM that I bought a year ago. It has been neglected over the years. And needed to be preserved.

It has been in the hands of Ted Green for awhile. Can't wait to see it.

Ron

Navy · 08-26-2005, 02:28 PM

Folks,

The simple reality is that the boosters and restoration techniques have both gotten so good of late that unless one does an *extremely* detailed inspection it is almost impossible to spot the restored and/or boosted guns.

I think we are going to witness an instantiation of Gresham's Law such that all of the authentic ORIGINAL minty pieces will disappear into collections and the only thing available on the open market will be the "improved" pieces and the salty old war dogs.

The guns in private collections, especially the rarer breeds will continue to be bought, sold and traded, but it will be done privately between collectors who know one another's collection and are familiar with the provenance of the pieces contained therein.

The net result will be that the younger, less affluent fledgling collectors will have one hell of a time getting established in the hobby.

Tom A

Ron Smith · 08-26-2005, 02:31 PM

Tom,

I agree. The days of finding an origianl "un-improved" Luger are beginning to wain.

Ron

John D. · 08-26-2005, 08:06 PM

Hi,

I agree with Tom A.'s post as well... It would appear that many of the new Kriegs in "mint shape" are coming out of the woodwork as of late. Those that come out of older collections are right on...

As well - I've never bought from Simpsons - but I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to do so... I just have to match my "check book" to their prices

!!

As for Tom H.'s statement that one restorer "claims he has refinished over 10% of the known serials shown in Gibson's book.." - that is total BS. I have no idea who is more wrong - Tom Heller for posting it as "fact" - or the "restorer" who claimed it to be true. Whatever...

John D.

08-23-2005, 10:25 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Nice HK Refinish Study... Folks at Simpsons have a nice refinished HK for sale...nice piece to study... http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2780

08-25-2005, 07:57 PM	#9
thegundude User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Western NC Posts: 1,137 Thanks: 3 Thanked 16 Times in 3 Posts	I was prepared to buy it but noticed that it's already on hold.... Rats, foiled again.... Besides, I've already decided that my next Luger will be something with a grip safety. But that Kreig might have changed that plan... Very nice... __________________ Keep your knees in the breeze and your iron in the air. ~Steve

08-26-2005, 09:46 AM	#10
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Being in the parts business, I have an opporturnity to sell to most of the well respected restorer. One of them here in the midwest who specializes in HKs, claims that he has refinished over 10% of the known serials shown in Gibson's book, so know what you are looking at. Th __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

08-26-2005, 02:18 PM	#11
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	I don't think there is anything wrong with restoring a luger that in this condition. I see it as reconditioning or preserving a piece of history. If a Luger is in bad condition, do to indifferent neglect, and can be restored. I believe it should be. Nothing is gained by leaving it alone. And I do believe that something is definitely lost in doing so. On the other hand, if the pistol is in good condition (80%+) and just shows honest use and has been cared for. I feel that light wear or patina is part of that history. And should be left as is. And should'nt be restored or refinished. Just because the owner wants a pretty gun. This is a 1914 DWM that I bought a year ago. It has been neglected over the years. And needed to be preserved. It has been in the hands of Ted Green for awhile. Can't wait to see it. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-26-2005, 02:31 PM	#13
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Tom, I agree. The days of finding an origianl "un-improved" Luger are beginning to wain. Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

08-24-2005, 01:17 AM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Bargain basement price for an HK these days, Pete!

08-24-2005, 04:29 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	At least he is honest enough to tell everyone that it has been restored. Some restorers are very good at their craft. We have a wide range of Luger lovers here. So, for some, this might not be a bad deal. There has been a lot of Krieghoffs restored. Finding one that hasn't been restored and knowing what to look for on a Krieghoff (especially the 'P' codes) can be a difficult. Its almost anything goes on the commercial HK's. Big Norm

08-24-2005, 07:45 AM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	It is not a frequent occurrance that nice Krieghoffs are offered to the general public. Typically they are sold and traded among collectors who know one another personally and know the provenance of the guns well before any sale takes place. I am ALWAYS leery when I see a Krieghoff FS in a public venue. Tom A.

08-24-2005, 06:01 PM	#5
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	No mention of matching numbers in description. Regards Ken D

08-25-2005, 05:29 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I really have mixed emotions on restored Lugers. Sometimes, I believe that restorations are penalized too heavily. I also have to agree with Tom. When any Luger has been restored maybe it would be best to want to see the gun in person or buy from a person with a reliable return policy. With HK's , it would probably be best to REALLY study the books so that you would know what to expect on a restoration. There seems to be a lot of variations on them. Not many people have the wisdom of a JohnD who has the ability to detect a genuine HK thats merely been prettied up from a counterfeit. Big Norm Personally, I have never bought a gun from Simpson. But I have talked to him many times and he seems to be a real nice guy. He also has a fine reputation. So, if this gun turned out to be a real bummer, I think that he would take back the returned gun with no problem. But make sure that you are prepared when you call him to ask questions. Big Norm

08-25-2005, 07:50 AM	#7
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Unlike Norm,I have purchased many, many guns from Bob Simpson..in fact I just sent him a check in the low five figures. He is honest, forthright and a real pleasure to deal with. Note, I did not say he was a bargain. But his stuff has always been good and any misunderstandings were always remedied on the spot. Highly recommended. Tom A.

08-25-2005, 07:27 PM	#8
Model 12 User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 13 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Gents, I'll tell you straight up, bro. I would gladly trade up from my unmolested 37 S/42 to that restored Kreig, and not just because it is a Kreig. That thing is beautiful. Exactly what turns my crank...a minty looking strawed type pistol from the prewar era. I certainly don't care that it is redone, assuming done properly, but that would look like a million bucks in my right hand down at the range. That is a work of art. Love it, love it, love it. Wish I had waited for the "right" gun. That one would be it (too bad it's on hold). It's like a Level 5 engraved Black Diamond Trap in my hands showing the "Citori boys" how it was done back in the day!!!

08-26-2005, 02:28 PM	#12
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Folks, The simple reality is that the boosters and restoration techniques have both gotten so good of late that unless one does an extremely detailed inspection it is almost impossible to spot the restored and/or boosted guns. I think we are going to witness an instantiation of Gresham's Law such that all of the authentic ORIGINAL minty pieces will disappear into collections and the only thing available on the open market will be the "improved" pieces and the salty old war dogs. The guns in private collections, especially the rarer breeds will continue to be bought, sold and traded, but it will be done privately between collectors who know one another's collection and are familiar with the provenance of the pieces contained therein. The net result will be that the younger, less affluent fledgling collectors will have one hell of a time getting established in the hobby. Tom A

08-26-2005, 08:06 PM	#14
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 477 Thanked 515 Times in 128 Posts	Hi, I agree with Tom A.'s post as well... It would appear that many of the new Kriegs in "mint shape" are coming out of the woodwork as of late. Those that come out of older collections are right on... As well - I've never bought from Simpsons - but I wouldn't hesitate for a moment to do so... I just have to match my "check book" to their prices !! As for Tom H.'s statement that one restorer "claims he has refinished over 10% of the known serials shown in Gibson's book.." - that is total BS. I have no idea who is more wrong - Tom Heller for posting it as "fact" - or the "restorer" who claimed it to be true. Whatever... John D.