Fleur de Lys marked lugers

drbuster · 03-13-2011, 12:49 PM

This was the second appearance of this incredible old cased set of two Fleur de Lys chamber marked lugers, one a four digit 1900, the other an '02 carbine. The case is as old as the lugers and appeared to have been a custom creation for some early French sportsman of means at the time. Note the deep roll died chamber markings and the different font size of the barrel markings of the two guns. Also note the custom made shoulder stock machined to fit the carbine. These were both examined by Robert Simpson (SimpsonLTD) and Charles Whittaker (Land of Borchardt) at the recent Reno show. Both could not recall seeing such ususual lugers before, both of them referencing the 1906 Fleur de Lys marked commercial luger pictured on pages 114-115 of Luger: The Multinational Pistol. Truly a one of a kind cased set with provenence back to the early part of the last century.

drbuster · 03-13-2011, 12:55 PM

Further views of the chamber markings, etc.

sheepherder · 03-13-2011, 01:43 PM

Exquisite!!!

Isn't/wasn't there a French arsenal at St. Etienne???

Is that a "tang" rear sight on the shoulder stock???

Vlim · 03-13-2011, 04:05 PM

Smells a lot like a product of 'Waffenfabrik USA' to me.

mauro · 03-13-2011, 04:35 PM

They forgot the "i" of Etienne on the box crest. It is Etienne and not Etenne.
Mmm!!!

Imperial Arms · 03-13-2011, 06:14 PM

I just love the creativity and imagination of some crooks - who can't spell!!

Plus the wrong type of ammunition and carbine sling.

Viva France,
Albert

Mike B · 03-13-2011, 07:19 PM

Looks like a New Orleans Saints commerative to me.

Mike

alanint · 03-13-2011, 07:27 PM

The leather Fleur de Lis patch on the inside cover of the case is no more than maybe ten years old. Leather will oxidize somewhat no matter how you take care of it. The edges of this leather crest seem brand new!

drbuster · 03-13-2011, 10:06 PM

Postino, yes there is a rear tang sight on the shoulder stock. The provenence of this rig comes from Europe although it arrived many years ago. I can check the details as the estate this came from was from a recently deceased collector. Also, in real light, one can see that the "i" is part of the "t", making it a connected double letter. Can you folks really believe that someone with the skill to make this rig set couldn't spell the name of one of his own towns? It's kind of strange that folks such as Robert Simpson and Charles Whittaker thought the rig was 100% righteous. The ammo box and sling were obvious later additions and in no way detract from what's left in the box!

Ron Wood · 03-13-2011, 10:25 PM

Doc,
You should know from experience that presenting something out of the ordinary to this crowd is like throwing a Chihuahua into a bunch of Pit Bulls...it is, rightly or wrongly, going to be torn to bits.

Norme · 03-13-2011, 10:30 PM

This is a tough crowd, Doc. Ever since that business with the Tooth Fairy years ago, we don't trust nobody. Regards, Norm

sheepherder · 03-14-2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Postino, yes there is a rear tang sight on the shoulder stock.

That is kind of odd...Do you recall (if you don't own it yourself) how that worked??? Wasn't the barrel mounted rear sight in the sightline??? Do you recall what the graduations were???

I will accept it at face value until proven otherwise...

John Sabato · 03-14-2011, 09:02 AM

Both of these guns look legitimate to me, but of course without lots more photos, I can't say that for sure.

The photos of the barrel marking have too much glare to read the entire inscription, but the marking in general is uniform in nature and looks stamped on, and does not look pantographed or engraved.

Any value created by making these two guns "look" like a couple of the elusive early "French" guns would be offset by what it would have cost to create the required stamping punch...

Previous guns with barrels marked in this manner have passed through this forum before. The story as I recall it from memory, was that the guns were marked as though they were manufactured in France (a bicycle manufacturer, if I remember correctly), because at the time they were produced, the sale of German firearms was prohibited in France. The guns were actually of DWM manufacture, but were marked like this on the barrel to give the false impression that they were made in France.

Someone who is a member of this forum is an owner of one of these "French" Luger pistols, but I can't remember who.

It would be interesting to do a quality photo essay comparison between the guns we have seen before, and these guns.

I can't comment of the quality or age of the case... not my area of knowledge or expertise...

Until shown to be real "fakes" (oxymoron)... and not just one of the original "French" pistols that I have described, I would have to give these two pistols the benefit of the doubt on their originality.

I am very curious as to how this unusual shoulder stock attaches to either of these pistols. I don't get the "hook" ???

Norme · 03-14-2011, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Truly a one of a kind cased set with provenence back to the early part of the last century.

Hi Herb, Are we to understand that documentary evidence exists showing the chain of ownership back to the early 1900's? If so, was it also available for examination at Reno? Best regards, Norm

drbuster · 03-14-2011, 10:18 AM

Ron, you are, as usual, correct in your above post. Ever since I was shown this rig by the maker of one of your coveted lugers, I was fascinated by it. I will begin to piece together the provenence of this rig and, again, learning my lesson, will e-mail you gems like this directly to you for your comments. If these guys cannot enjoy great stuff like this (perhaps because it's not theirs!), then we can enjoy them among ourselves. I repeat that the likes of Robert Simpson, Charles Whittaker and even Don Hallock all saw this rig and were impressed.

Norme · 03-14-2011, 10:46 AM

Hi Herb, Please don't think we are anything but grateful that you took the time and trouble to post pictures of this remarkable set. True or false it's one of the most interesting posts I've seen in a while. You must realize though, that when such experienced experts as Simpson, Whittaker and Hallock state that they have never seen anything like this set before, it's hardly support for originality, just the opposite! As to the illustration in "Luger, The Multi-National Pistol", I believe that many of the guns shown have since been discredited and one of it's co-authors has since served time in jail for fraud. Best regards, Norm

Ron Smith · 03-14-2011, 11:21 AM

Doc,

Who owns this set, or had it displayed?

Ron

John Sabato · 03-14-2011, 11:36 AM

Doc,

I just re-read my post, and I came down on the side of these rare guns being original... unless proven otherwise. ???

I'm not sure how you may have come to any conclusion to the contrary... Are the guns controversial? You bet... Controvversial is the heartbeat of this forum... But fakes? I certainly don't believe so.

Vlim · 03-14-2011, 12:19 PM

Just assuming for the sake of arguments that the guns are legit:

Why would a company like 'Manufacture Francaise' or 'Manufrance' mark their cases with 'St Etienne' (the name of the town one of their outfits was located in)?

ManuFrance had their sales offices in Paris and were quite proud to advertise that fact in their own catalogues. They were equally fond of their name, so the last thing they would do was NOT mark it with their own name (and address) but with the name of some obscure town where their manufacturing department was located...

It's like Ford putting 'Detroit' on their cars, instead of 'Ford'.....

calibrator · 03-14-2011, 12:24 PM

Hey John ! I was wondering about the "Hook" also. The more I look at it, I think the end of the hook slides into a lug in a conventional manner. The wood under the rear sight is SO thick you couldn't grasp around it if it mated closely to the grip. NOT what you're used to seeing, but looks like it would be very comfortable to grip. YMMV Joe

03-13-2011, 12:49 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Fleur de Lys marked lugers This was the second appearance of this incredible old cased set of two Fleur de Lys chamber marked lugers, one a four digit 1900, the other an '02 carbine. The case is as old as the lugers and appeared to have been a custom creation for some early French sportsman of means at the time. Note the deep roll died chamber markings and the different font size of the barrel markings of the two guns. Also note the custom made shoulder stock machined to fit the carbine. These were both examined by Robert Simpson (SimpsonLTD) and Charles Whittaker (Land of Borchardt) at the recent Reno show. Both could not recall seeing such ususual lugers before, both of them referencing the 1906 Fleur de Lys marked commercial luger pictured on pages 114-115 of Luger: The Multinational Pistol. Truly a one of a kind cased set with provenence back to the early part of the last century. Attached Thumbnails

03-13-2011, 12:55 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Further views of the chamber markings, etc. Attached Thumbnails

03-13-2011, 01:43 PM	#3
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,183 Thanks: 1,400 Thanked 4,442 Times in 2,330 Posts	Exquisite!!! Isn't/wasn't there a French arsenal at St. Etienne??? Is that a "tang" rear sight on the shoulder stock??? __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

03-13-2011, 04:35 PM	#5
mauro FIREARM HISTORIAN AND AUT Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 1,535 Thanks: 106 Thanked 349 Times in 129 Posts	They forgot the "i" of Etienne on the box crest. It is Etienne and not Etenne. Mmm!!! __________________ Mauro Baudino - www.lugerlp08.com www.paul-mauser-archive.com Mauser Company and Firearm Historian - Mauser Parabellum Certification Service.

03-13-2011, 10:25 PM	#10
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Doc, You should know from experience that presenting something out of the ordinary to this crowd is like throwing a Chihuahua into a bunch of Pit Bulls...it is, rightly or wrongly, going to be torn to bits. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-13-2011, 04:05 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Smells a lot like a product of 'Waffenfabrik USA' to me.

03-13-2011, 06:14 PM	#6
Imperial Arms Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Malta, EU Posts: 579 Thanks: 0 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts	I just love the creativity and imagination of some crooks - who can't spell!! Plus the wrong type of ammunition and carbine sling. Viva France, Albert

03-13-2011, 07:19 PM	#7
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Looks like a New Orleans Saints commerative to me. Mike

03-13-2011, 07:27 PM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	The leather Fleur de Lis patch on the inside cover of the case is no more than maybe ten years old. Leather will oxidize somewhat no matter how you take care of it. The edges of this leather crest seem brand new!

03-13-2011, 10:06 PM	#9
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Postino, yes there is a rear tang sight on the shoulder stock. The provenence of this rig comes from Europe although it arrived many years ago. I can check the details as the estate this came from was from a recently deceased collector. Also, in real light, one can see that the "i" is part of the "t", making it a connected double letter. Can you folks really believe that someone with the skill to make this rig set couldn't spell the name of one of his own towns? It's kind of strange that folks such as Robert Simpson and Charles Whittaker thought the rig was 100% righteous. The ammo box and sling were obvious later additions and in no way detract from what's left in the box!

03-13-2011, 10:30 PM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	This is a tough crowd, Doc. Ever since that business with the Tooth Fairy years ago, we don't trust nobody. Regards, Norm

03-14-2011, 09:02 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Both of these guns look legitimate to me, but of course without lots more photos, I can't say that for sure. The photos of the barrel marking have too much glare to read the entire inscription, but the marking in general is uniform in nature and looks stamped on, and does not look pantographed or engraved. Any value created by making these two guns "look" like a couple of the elusive early "French" guns would be offset by what it would have cost to create the required stamping punch... Previous guns with barrels marked in this manner have passed through this forum before. The story as I recall it from memory, was that the guns were marked as though they were manufactured in France (a bicycle manufacturer, if I remember correctly), because at the time they were produced, the sale of German firearms was prohibited in France. The guns were actually of DWM manufacture, but were marked like this on the barrel to give the false impression that they were made in France. Someone who is a member of this forum is an owner of one of these "French" Luger pistols, but I can't remember who. It would be interesting to do a quality photo essay comparison between the guns we have seen before, and these guns. I can't comment of the quality or age of the case... not my area of knowledge or expertise... Until shown to be *real* "fakes" (oxymoron)... and not just one of the original "French" pistols that I have described, I would have to give these two pistols the benefit of the doubt on their originality. I am very curious as to how this unusual shoulder stock attaches to either of these pistols. I don't get the "hook" ??? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-14-2011, 10:18 AM	#15
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ron, you are, as usual, correct in your above post. Ever since I was shown this rig by the maker of one of your coveted lugers, I was fascinated by it. I will begin to piece together the provenence of this rig and, again, learning my lesson, will e-mail you gems like this directly to you for your comments. If these guys cannot enjoy great stuff like this (perhaps because it's not theirs!), then we can enjoy them among ourselves. I repeat that the likes of Robert Simpson, Charles Whittaker and even Don Hallock all saw this rig and were impressed.

03-14-2011, 10:46 AM	#16
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Herb, Please don't think we are anything but grateful that you took the time and trouble to post pictures of this remarkable set. True or false it's one of the most interesting posts I've seen in a while. You must realize though, that when such experienced experts as Simpson, Whittaker and Hallock state that they have never seen anything like this set before, it's hardly support for originality, just the opposite! As to the illustration in "Luger, The Multi-National Pistol", I believe that many of the guns shown have since been discredited and one of it's co-authors has since served time in jail for fraud. Best regards, Norm

03-14-2011, 11:21 AM	#17
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Doc, Who owns this set, or had it displayed? Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

03-14-2011, 11:36 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Doc, I just re-read my post, and I came down on the side of these rare guns being original... unless proven otherwise. ??? I'm not sure how you may have come to any conclusion to the contrary... Are the guns controversial? You bet... Controvversial is the heartbeat of this forum... But fakes? I certainly don't believe so. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-14-2011, 12:19 PM	#19
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Just assuming for the sake of arguments that the guns are legit: Why would a company like 'Manufacture Francaise' or 'Manufrance' mark their cases with 'St Etienne' (the name of the town one of their outfits was located in)? ManuFrance had their sales offices in Paris and were quite proud to advertise that fact in their own catalogues. They were equally fond of their name, so the last thing they would do was NOT mark it with their own name (and address) but with the name of some obscure town where their manufacturing department was located... It's like Ford putting 'Detroit' on their cars, instead of 'Ford'.....

03-14-2011, 12:24 PM	#20
calibrator User Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Cave Creek Posts: 315 Thanks: 55 Thanked 242 Times in 92 Posts	Hey John ! I was wondering about the "Hook" also. The more I look at it, I think the end of the hook slides into a lug in a conventional manner. The wood under the rear sight is SO thick you couldn't grasp around it if it mated closely to the grip. NOT what you're used to seeing, but looks like it would be very comfortable to grip. YMMV Joe