SIMSON vs KRIEGHOFF prices

Sergio Natali · 07-19-2019, 01:13 PM

Perhaps I'm going to ask a question very simple to answer, but I've always wondered why KRIEGHOFF Lugers cost so much more that SIMSON ones.
Can't be because of the quantities made, according to Mr Randall Gibson KRIEGHOFF made about 12,200 pistols for the Luftwaffe and 1,625 commercial ones, while SIMSON made even fewer pistols, about 11,900 pieces only for the Army and the Police.
Am I wrong to assume that is probably a sort of mix between production "quality" , number of pistols on the market, and historical significance that still makes KRIEGHOFF lugers so much more sought after?

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2019, 01:52 PM

yes - I think it is from several factors

1. Condition
Krieghoffs (HK) were made from approx 1936 through the war, while Simson were made in 1925-1934 - and were slotted for army use - so they were used much more

2. Fit and finish
Fit I would say it was the same, however Simson was making a army pistol, HK was making a gun to impress the brass (hoping to get machinegun contracts I have read, more profit in them I think), so I believe they put in more effort in making them with a deep blued finish

3. American propaganda - I think less was known about Simson arms in the 50's and 60's and I think dealers knew that HK had beautiful shotguns, so they pushed HK as special.

Norme · 07-19-2019, 02:16 PM

What I'm about to write will probably sound like heresy to some and sour grapes to others. (For the record, I'm a long time Krieghoff owner (1937 #7736) and have shot skeet with HK shotguns for over 40 years).
There is a widespread belief that HK's were lovingly assembled by old-world craftsmen who lavished them with superior fit and finish.
Nothing could be further from the truth! Krieghoff was a small family owned company (and still is), whereas Mauser was an enormous arms making factory whose average monthly Luger production approached that of all the HK's ever made. Krieghoffs were produced on antiquated machinery and a high proportion of the parts produced were out of spec and had to be laboriously fitted by hand. If that was not possible they were assembled into guns for commercial sale (waste not want not!). By contrast, the Lugers at the Mauser plant were produced on state of the art machinery and the small proportion of out of spec parts were simply discarded.
Mauser P08's had an enviable reputation for reliability and accuracy during WW2 and still do. Krieghoff's saw little actual war time use since most of them were issued to Luftwaffe flak units that were stationed behind the lines. Nowadays they have gotten so expensive that their owners are afraid to shoot them!
Norm

DonVoigt · 07-19-2019, 03:16 PM

I'm with Norm, it is the "Krieghoff" name mystique- coupled with "Nazi" and "Luftwaffe".

Any notion of "quality" really makes little sense as they were produced on third hand - "hand-me-down" machinery: Erfurt->Simson->Krieghoff. JMHO.

Only luger mfg. that I know of that marketed "reject" frames, those marked with a star, as good enough for commerce.

Edward Tinker · 07-19-2019, 04:51 PM

Although I agree with Norm - what does Mauser have to do with Simson?

MikeP · 07-19-2019, 10:54 PM

I remember shows in the 50s and 60s. Krieghoffs were considered as premium for some obscure reason and Simson Suhl's were seen mostly as just an odd variation.
Unit markings were considered as detractions and BYF 41s were considered cheapo last ditch specimens that nobody wanted. Hence the resulting marketing ploy "Black Widow".
Funny to see the changes.

Mac Cat · 07-19-2019, 11:12 PM

I think the fact Kreighoff's were originally ordered for the Luftwaffe made them sound special. I think Goering ordered 10,000 of them, but by that point in aviation history, experienced airmen wanted a vest pistol and some officers were going for the newer P-38. They do have different acceptance and proof stamps and lot of variations.

I believe German officers chose their own sidearms, but enlisted were issued their weapons.

Sergio Natali · 07-20-2019, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Although I agree with Norm - what does Mauser have to do with Simson?

Probably Norm was only making a comparison.

Anyway thanks Edward, who better than you could have given me an answer on SIMSON's lugers.

Vlim · 07-20-2019, 10:25 AM

Hmm. After Krieghoff came the VEB Ernst Thälmann Werke in Suhl. They only did a small run in 1953.

So technically they should be the most expensive ones

07-19-2019, 01:13 PM	#1
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	SIMSON vs KRIEGHOFF prices Perhaps I'm going to ask a question very simple to answer, but I've always wondered why KRIEGHOFF Lugers cost so much more that SIMSON ones. Can't be because of the quantities made, according to Mr Randall Gibson KRIEGHOFF made about 12,200 pistols for the Luftwaffe and 1,625 commercial ones, while SIMSON made even fewer pistols, about 11,900 pieces only for the Army and the Police. Am I wrong to assume that is probably a sort of mix between production "quality" , number of pistols on the market, and historical significance that still makes KRIEGHOFF lugers so much more sought after? __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

07-19-2019, 03:16 PM	#4
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,681 Thanks: 1,441 Thanked 4,350 Times in 2,040 Posts	I'm with Norm, it is the "Krieghoff" name mystique- coupled with "Nazi" and "Luftwaffe". Any notion of "quality" really makes little sense as they were produced on third hand - "hand-me-down" machinery: Erfurt->Simson->Krieghoff. JMHO. Only luger mfg. that I know of that marketed "reject" frames, those marked with a star, as good enough for commerce. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

07-20-2019, 10:25 AM	#9
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hmm. After Krieghoff came the VEB Ernst Thälmann Werke in Suhl. They only did a small run in 1953. So technically they should be the most expensive ones Attached Thumbnails

07-19-2019, 01:52 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	yes - I think it is from several factors 1. Condition Krieghoffs (HK) were made from approx 1936 through the war, while Simson were made in 1925-1934 - and were slotted for army use - so they were used much more 2. Fit and finish Fit I would say it was the same, however Simson was making a army pistol, HK was making a gun to impress the brass (hoping to get machinegun contracts I have read, more profit in them I think), so I believe they put in more effort in making them with a deep blued finish 3. American propaganda - I think less was known about Simson arms in the 50's and 60's and I think dealers knew that HK had beautiful shotguns, so they pushed HK as special.

07-19-2019, 02:16 PM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	What I'm about to write will probably sound like heresy to some and sour grapes to others. (For the record, I'm a long time Krieghoff owner (1937 #7736) and have shot skeet with HK shotguns for over 40 years). There is a widespread belief that HK's were lovingly assembled by old-world craftsmen who lavished them with superior fit and finish. Nothing could be further from the truth! Krieghoff was a small family owned company (and still is), whereas Mauser was an enormous arms making factory whose average monthly Luger production approached that of all the HK's ever made. Krieghoffs were produced on antiquated machinery and a high proportion of the parts produced were out of spec and had to be laboriously fitted by hand. If that was not possible they were assembled into guns for commercial sale (waste not want not!). By contrast, the Lugers at the Mauser plant were produced on state of the art machinery and the small proportion of out of spec parts were simply discarded. Mauser P08's had an enviable reputation for reliability and accuracy during WW2 and still do. Krieghoff's saw little actual war time use since most of them were issued to Luftwaffe flak units that were stationed behind the lines. Nowadays they have gotten so expensive that their owners are afraid to shoot them! Norm

07-19-2019, 04:51 PM	#5
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Although I agree with Norm - what does Mauser have to do with Simson?

07-19-2019, 10:54 PM	#6
MikeP User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ILL Posts: 686 Thanks: 36 Thanked 452 Times in 198 Posts	I remember shows in the 50s and 60s. Krieghoffs were considered as premium for some obscure reason and Simson Suhl's were seen mostly as just an odd variation. Unit markings were considered as detractions and BYF 41s were considered cheapo last ditch specimens that nobody wanted. Hence the resulting marketing ploy "Black Widow". Funny to see the changes.

07-19-2019, 11:12 PM	#7
Mac Cat Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 727 Thanks: 2,090 Thanked 606 Times in 327 Posts	I think the fact Kreighoff's were originally ordered for the Luftwaffe made them sound special. I think Goering ordered 10,000 of them, but by that point in aviation history, experienced airmen wanted a vest pistol and some officers were going for the newer P-38. They do have different acceptance and proof stamps and lot of variations. I believe German officers chose their own sidearms, but enlisted were issued their weapons.