1916 Erfurt "Failure to ****"

[ChuckM]

At the advice of another user I am creating a new thread for this issue. Hoping to solve a problem I have with a 1916 Erfurt. In my case the gun will not **** at all, even by hand. The action seems to work, it will hold open with an empty mag, but doesn't seem to **** or dry fire no matter what. Internally the gun looks good. The only thing I see is some noticeable "peening" around the Breech Block where the Firing Pin Spring Guide locks in. That FPSG also doesn't seem to stay in very well and often pops out when field stripping. I am afraid I will need to replace the Breech Block and the FPSG since both look worn and don't provide a very positive lock and that looks like a $100 from Numrich. That wouldn't be all that bad, but I dont think that's the entire fix or why it wont ****. The Firing Pin Spring itself is a little bent (possibly caused when the guide pops out). I plan on replacing the spring, but looking for advice to solve the cocking problem at the same time. I read the sticky thread about cocking, but if the problem is the lever not slipping over the Trigger Bar, shouldn't you be able to release/dry fire it with the side plate off and by depressing the trigger bar? I don't think my problem is that its not releasing, it appears not to be cocking to start with. Thanks again. ChuckM

[DonVoigt]

Sometimes the sear portion of the striker breaks off, yours may be missing.
Post some pictures of the areas involved.

You are correct you should be able to retain the striker in firing position and fire the "cannon" without it being installed in the frame at all; which would eliminate any side plate/lever associated problems.

Pictures really will help.

I do not think a bent spring is the problem; though it should be replaced.

[Lugerdoc]

Chuck, i agree with Don, that your FP is not catching on the trigger bar (sear) which could be caused by either of these parts being worn internally. TH

[hayhugh]

You lost me with Failure to ****" What does **** mean?

[ChuckM]

for your input. I am not very familiar with this gun, just observing what I can and studying the schematic. I will be happy to try to take some pics. Can you specifically tell me what shots would be helpful and I will try to take them. C.

[ChuckM]

but I didn't type it that way. The forum censors certain words. The failure was to C-O-C-K. Hopefully that will print correctly. Thanks. C.

[John Sabato]

Remove the upper receiver with toggle from the lower frame. Open the toggle fully and then close the toggle slowly. In the last half to 3/4 inch before the breechblock is fully forward you should actually feel the sear engage the spring loaded firing pin as you close the breech. If you do not, then either your sear is worn beyond use, or has been filed down by some previous owner, or the sear engagement surface on the firing pin has been altered or damaged.

Remove both the sear bar, and the firing pin and take clear focus photos of both from different angles so we can diagnose the problem further.

[ChuckM]

Thanks so much for your reply. When doing as you asked, it immediately caused the Firing Pin Spring Guide to shoot out of the Breech Block. It is the face of the Breech Block where it shows signs of damage, what I would call "peening" of the metal and the locking tab channel inside appears very shallow and worn. I have included some pics of those parts. The sear bar that you refer to, I assume, is what is referred to as the Trigger Bar on the schematic? I don't know how to remove that. I am guessing it involves prying up the Trigger Bar Spring somehow? If you could give me some addnl instruction on that I will remove it and post some pics. Thanks for all of your help. C.

PS - The Trigger Bar is one of the few parts on the gun that doesn't have matching S/N's so my guess is that it was replaced at least once before. C.

[ChuckM]

Got the trigger bar off and here are some pics of it. C

[rhuff]

From what I can see, I believe that the breechblock is your problem.....or at least part of it. If it won't hold the firing pin, spring, and guide as it tries to set on the sear, there is no cocking of the firing pin. Also, there looks to be something "off" on the sear bar, or it is just the angle of the photo that gives it that impression.

[hayhugh]

Tell you what, you took some great pictures.

[DonVoigt]

I would try another breech block, or a toggle assembly- but I guess you don't have another or you would have done that already.

Got a friend with a luger? I'd borrow a toggle from a shooter and try it.

Since the FP guide won't stay in place, it does seem the block is the likely culprit.

What area of the country are you located? Someone may be close enough to help.

[Lugerdoc]

Chuck, You definately need a different breech block or have the rear or your current one welded up, if your pistol is otherwise matching. You may also need a different sear. TH

[ChuckM]

Thanks again, guys, for your advice and assistance. I am in NNJ. Sorry I didn't answer back yesterday, but was actually playing Match Director for a monthly Rimfire Match at our range all day. So the consensus seems to agree that the Breech Block is an issue and it may also make sense to replace the Trigger Bar as well. Guess that's not too bad to get this thing working properly. Now my next question...Looking at the parts list from Numrich, they offer two different Breech Blocks. An "original" listed at 90.80 and a "replacement" listed at 94.55. Even though the prices are close, why would a replacement cost more than an original? Wouldn't an original always be preferable? Why would I want a replacement over an original? Since there are other non-matching parts already on this gun and it appears to have been re-blued at some time, I don't know that the value would be affected either way, would it? C.

[rhuff]

If I had your problem, I would most likely deal with someone that not only knows a TON about Lugers, but also has the correct parts for sale....that is our own Tom(Lugerdoc) here on this forum. You deal directly with him(a one man operation), and not a "parts picker" at Numerich. I have dealt with him many times and can highly recommend him, as can many others. Tom is not going to sell you a worn out/bad breechblock that you have to return.


There are aftermarket breechblocks available, and I have purchased a few. They need to be fitted to your barrel extension, which is doable if you are familiar with mechanical things and have some tools.



Your choice

[ChuckM]

to everyone for your assistance and for your valuable advice to send it to an expert. Tom, LugerDoc, was great to deal with and provided a quick turn-around on the gun. Got it back today and seems to function fine again. Cant wait to try it out. Would recommend Tom Heller to anyone looking for an expert they can trust their guns to. Thank you. C.

[rhuff]

So glad to hear that you had a good experience with Tom, and that he was able to get things up to snuff for you. The old Lugers are a hoot to shoot!!

[hayhugh]

And what did Tom find the problem to be?

[ChuckM]

Blown Breech Block. He replaced that along with its corresponding parts and test fired it before sending it back. C.