A different Prespective

Navy · 10-30-2003, 08:49 AM

Hi CG and welcome,

At the risk of going counter to the advice you have received here (all of which was good, I just have a different point of view)

I would suggest you take part of that $600 and buy Jan Still's excellent trilogy FIRST.

Then begin saving. Save, save, save.

Then when you have a respectable war chest, find a COLLECTOR, not a dealer (dealers have overhead expenses, gota make a profit and, yee gads, some are actually dishonest...you generally get more gun per $ from a collector for this simple economic reason..no disrespect to the dealers who are Forum members intended)and begin discussions about a purchase from that collector or another collector they know and recommend.

You want to buy the absolute best you can find. Relax on the budget; you can ALWAYS get more money as long as you are employed and the guvmint keeps the presses running at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving, but finding top quality Lugers is rapidly becoming very difficult.

What location, location, location is to real estate, condition, condition, condition is to lugers.

And you may wish to search through some back issues of the forum for my Forensics-based inspection and examination tips so that you will know what you are looking for and at and, hopefully not be on the prey side of the Luger collector predator/prey continuum.

My zwei pfennigs,

Flame away All.

Tom A

policeluger · 10-30-2003, 10:25 AM

Ver sound advice, but with one stroke of the key board you did away with all dealers and made it sound that any collector was great too deal with. I have seen more fly by night "collectors" set up and gun shows, or in monthly gun papers that will tell you any lie too make the sale. The more novice you are, the more the shade tree collector will take you for a ride, and try getting a three day inspection after the sale and the "collector" is miles down the road. Read/learn and buy books prior too investing. Ask around, who people trust, but do not think all dealers are dishonest and all "collectors" are honest.

Edward Tinker · 10-30-2003, 10:48 AM

Have to agree with both.

But, I have dealt with both and if you can find a reasonably honest collector, you are ahead of the game, plus they have the TIME to make friends and TEACH you.

This forum has widened my circle of friends, and I am picky as hell about who I make as friends.

Ed

Navy · 10-30-2003, 10:57 AM

Policeluger,

I did not mean to suggest that ALL dealers were dishonest or that all collectors were upright, God-fearing bastions of rectitude. There are diamonds and there are stones in both groups. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

One would be naive in the extreme to assume that possession of a Type 03 FFL confers any degree of good charatcter. There are some collectors that I know who I have doubts about. Its that Prey/predator thing I mentioned. You have to be careful in m you trust.

Having said that, I still maintain that the better value is generally going to be in buying from someone who is not trying to make a living from our hobby.

Tom A.

policeluger · 10-30-2003, 12:33 PM

I remember once, perhaps about ten years ago at the L.A. Great Western Gun Show, sadly no more. I had just bought a still treasured Weimar police rig from FGS, perhaps one of the big dealers you had in mind in your first post here. About an hour later I ran into Tom Heller, who at that time appraised my new $500 rig at $1,400. It was one of the great buys of all my years of collecting, and it was from one of the bigger dealers I still trust. Yes Ed you are correct, but Ralph Shattuck has spent hours sharing his knowledge with several of us that I know of and has never asked for a dime in return. Its all fun and as soon as I learn how too post a picture of my new 6x7 bull elk in the hunting thread here on the forum I will, I was going too carry a Luger in my back pack and pose for a picture of my bull while holding the Luger. But remembering how many fall I take per mile of hiking, I was not going too risk damaging the gun. As it was after the hunt I found a small piece of my rifle stock chiped out. P/S the shop just picked up a Colt mod 1851 .36 cal Navy, 1869 year of production in fair/good condition, for sale.

Navy · 10-30-2003, 03:07 PM

I share your assessment of FGS.
Tom A.

Big Norm · 11-01-2003, 03:40 AM

I also like FGS and have enjoyed many conversations with Ken and Joe. I remember once seeing Doug get all excited over a find at a OGCA meeting. It was a brass flashlight that could be afixed to the barrel of a Luger and had a wire that would run to a battery pack on a belt. I kept thinking that this guy who has such a big collection of rare accessories to Lugers can still get excited about finding something different and unusual.

I would bet that Doug has a bunch of rare stuff buried away that few people would even know what it is. Ken once told me that they are trying to take an inventory of Dougs stuff but that it is nearly impossible.

But I agree with the original premise of this thread by TomA. Too many guys go to gun shows and go straight to the big dealers tables without even looking at the tables of the little guys who have a mixture of five or six guns with a treasure partially hidden in the corner of their table.

Then I have seen the little sellers quiver in their boots while trying to sell a Luger. They don't have a clue about what they have and don't know if they have the gun priced too high or too low. They go to the big dealers tables and see the prices and figure that that is the price to put on their one Luger. Then the gun just sits there with nobody even looking at it. They just don't realise that sometimes the dealer doesn't know what price to put on a given Luger either. More often than not, they just pack up their Lugers and take them home without any sales. The big dealers are willing to wait for their price. The little guy doesn't want to wait.

Simpson used to hand out little booklets of Lugers that he had for sale. I kept them. I think that Simpson had a love affair with Lugers that had grip safeties. He had them so over priced that I bet that he still has them in inventory after many years. I got burned on an 1900 American Eagle when I was first starting out because I used Simpsons price books as a reference to buy from an individual. I still have that AE and its still pretty, but I paid way too much at the time.

I could also get into a very long discussion about appraising and appraisors. I am not pointing a finger at anyone in particular. But appraising a Luger can sometimes be difficult. Is there really such a thing as an expert on ALL Lugers? Emotions come into play. Is this a gun that the expert wants to buy? Is he just pricing it for conversation sake? Is he just pricing it while wasting some time and does not care what the seller gets for the gun? There are many other reasons that someone would appraise someone elses gun. Basically, it still boils down to what a buyer is willing to pay for the gun, if the seller can find that right person and how long the seller is willing to wait to find that buyer. I have guns that I wonder where my head was and I have seen guns sell for prices that made me wonder where that buyers head was at. Its a jungle out there.
Big Norm

CG of MP · 11-01-2003, 02:53 PM

Greetings Gentlemen,

Thank you for the insightful perspectives.... I appreciate all input even if it muddies up the waters of my mind even further.

Tom, though I am about to derail your ideas insofar as my situation is concerned, I completely agree with the premise you posted and that has been echoed by others here. It really IS condition that makes a difference, not only in value generally, but also in pride of ownership.

I know this first hand because the first M1 I got (the one I made the M1 Garand Website using) was pretty rough.. though I love it and would not sell it (chiefly because I did SO much with it in making the photos and such) it does not have nearly as much of the 'cool' factor that a SUPER condition all original M1 has that was part of what I got for helping the CMP out with their site.

SADLY However, real life comes into play... The 600 dollar figure for a Luger is pretty well hard coded for me - at least for the next couple of years... In fact it is a little bit of a stretch :-) My wife and I talked this over and when we complete the website we are currently working on, we'll have the money to do this, but no more for a while. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />

I DO want to shoot it and I DO want to learn about it so getting a lesser condition piece NOW rather than waiting 2 years or more to get my first Luger is probably a better compromise.

Of course, maybe I'll get really lucky and some Luger dealer will want us to build him a website and pay me in Lugers.. but the chances are probably better that I'll trip over a bag of gold nuggets when I leave work Monday.

In any case, you are completely right in what you say, but I really do not want to wait for 2 years to get a Luger...

Hmmmm then again, maybe I could just feed one of the kids only once a week and... <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />

Okay okay I guess the wife vetoed THAT idea...

Well anyhow... you guys are completely right but my situation is something of an exception. And in truth I love the kids enough to go Luger hungry myself for eternity if needed

I am also quite fine with purchase from either a dealer or an individual or a collector. I am puchasing the 'gun' not the story or the seller's credentials. I ahve met several great people in the gun biz and several rats. They represent both dealers and collectors.

Most appreciate the thoughtful responses.

Charles - still looking!

PS: policeluger - send the photo to me if you like and I'll temporarily house it on memorableplaces.com and post it here for you.

Pete Ebbink · 11-01-2003, 05:33 PM

Hello Charles,

There is a very decent luger for sale for $ 695 at the following web site :

http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=462

If I did not have a 1920 commercial luger already in my collection, I would want this one and would not worry about shooting it...

(And as always, I have no financial connection with the sale of this pistol...)

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

CG of MP · 11-02-2003, 01:34 AM

Thanks for the tip Pete!

I am pretty well stuck on wanting a military 9mm... I loaded the page however and it certainly does look nice!

By the way are you local to the bay area?

Take care,
Charles

Edward Tinker · 11-02-2003, 10:18 AM

Charles, you might want to check this site, I know that Russ had several Lugers for sale for good prices and he is a great guy, and won't screw you.

Also, I know it is easier for you to post to your own site, but there is an upload here on this site that isn't that hard to learn or use, and then we know the pictures will be hosted here for 3 or 4 months... ...and then we as administrators can lighten, help, modify, etc., on the pictures if needed.

Ed

Pete Ebbink · 11-02-2003, 11:24 AM

Hello Charles,

Yes...I live in the East Bay and another LF member, Doc. Herb Fisher lives in the Bay Area...

Every couple of months the two of us get together and meet at Mike Krause's gun shop in San Mateo to share lugers/stuff that we recently bought and to see what Krause might have for sale in his shop.

We are also planning on attending the Reno gun show which runs Friday 11-14-03 through Sunday 11-16-03. There are usually 3-6 guys from the LF in attendance at the show and we get together for dinner on Friday night. If you can make the show, it is a good one for lugers and one can learn alot and you are welcomed to join us and join us for dinner. Another LF member, Russ Withem, always has table(s) and allows us to use his as our "base camp" during the show.

Here is the show link :

http://www.bigrenoshow.com/

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

CG of MP · 11-03-2003, 09:32 PM

Greetings Mr. Tinker, I am afraid that your link did not work. what site were you refering to?

As for posting photos.. I was just trying to help a couple people that had asked.

Pete, thanks for the kind invite to Reno.. I'd love to come, but a police chief I worked for over a decade ago is coming into town and I had to cancel the tentative plans that I had to go to Reno and meet up with you guys. Very unfortunate in Lugerville, but he may want me to do a website for him (coffee busioness?!?) and I have not seen him in a decade...

What is the name of the shop in San Mateo? Do they have lots of Luger goodies?

I'd consider stopping in there.. Do they have a website I can browse?

Time for a Google search I think...

Charles

Pete Ebbink · 11-03-2003, 09:46 PM

Hello Charles,

Here is the link to Mike Krause's shop in San Mateo, CA :

http://www.krausewerk.com

I think they are only open Tues-Sat, opening at 12 noon each day.

They do not post inventory on the web site. They recently took over the entire 2nd. story of the building and now all the C&R pistols and long rifles are now very well displayed. They have some specialty rooms as well such as knives/dagger/swords, a book room, and a Militaria room.

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Edward Tinker · 11-04-2003, 12:40 AM

Sorry, when I said this site, I actually meant, this site.

There is a section on buying and selling here, and that is all I meant. I knew you were just trying to help and I am sure that John D appreciates it, but past experience has made me leery of others having links to their site. The only reason is that some times the guy posts a photo and its one of those king size ones, where you scroll back and forth, back and forth, so was just mentioning it. I am sure that your website abilities are far removed from that example, and didn't mean to say anything bad,

Ed

John Sabato · 11-04-2003, 06:56 AM

Another reason to post your photos uploaded here Charles is that when John D. does his backup of the site, the photo remains with the post. If you should change your ISP for instance, or even the name of your website, the link from a post to the photo would be lost... I always recommend that you upload the photos directly to the Lugerforum... the link in on the left frame of the homepage... and the homepage link is at the bottom of all discussion pages.

CG of MP · 11-05-2003, 04:34 AM

*raises hands against the stones and rocks* Okay guys! Okay! :-) I'll never again post anyone else's photos but my own with links to my site :-) :-)

Just as a datapoint, the chance of my domain changing is nill, I have MemorablePlaces.com registered for about 10 years if I rememeber right.

In any event, I understand and generally concur with your ratinalle and will leave others to do the customary uploads themselves.

--------------
Back to my quest...if I may!

Pete - Thanks for the tip... I called Mike Krause's shop in San Mateo and spoke to a nice gentleman by the name of John for about 10 min. They may or may not have something that I could use, but the price sounds like it will be a BIT over what I hoped to spend. John said he will not be in Saturday but that Ted will and that Ted was an interesting character to talk to. I asked what that meant and heard lauging in the background. Seems the consensus is that if you ask Ted the time he tells you how to build a clock. Just what I probably need here. :-)

In any event... after talking to them, it sounds like a trip to their shop is in order just because the place sounds very cool! I thought I knew most of the area gunstores, and Imbert and Smithers isnt too far from them... but I guess not.

Sooo... I am probably gonna pack the kids and the wife into the car and head over there Saturday just to snoop around. They sound pretty busy and Mike just got back from Vegas and has another personal item in the fire, so I doubt I'll find anything laid out in anticipation of my needs this trip.. but it sounds like there is a lot of militaria there and some neet historical things to show the kids anyhow.

I'll probably end up making a trip back later.

----------------
***QUESTION*** Has anyone heard of or had any bad dealings with this individual? If so please send me an email mailto:tenarius@memorableplaces.comtenarius@memorableplaces.com</a> and let me know. Heck if you have had good experiences let me know that too! As this person is semi-local to me, it would be a real positive thing if I could buy from him, (prices and all things being similar) but this is still a blind item to me....
---------------

I mean ZERO disrespect to MK and I am only trying to gague my options here.

In any event, thanks for the ongoing help folks.

If there is something of interest to me I'll ask to post photographs. Also if they will allow it I may just get somme pics of other goodies in the shop if anyone is interested...

Thanks!
Charles

John Sabato · 11-05-2003, 10:11 AM

Photos of Mike Krause's shop and any goodies he might currently have would be very interesting. Please post any photos you take... Especially any photos he allows you to take of one of the .45 Caliber Luger reproductions that he manufactures @ $15K each...

Pete Ebbink · 11-07-2003, 08:28 PM

Hello Charles,

Shopping in gun shops and having a wife present just seem to be diamterically opposed forces in nature that seemingly do not come smoothly and calmly together...

The Hillsdale Mall (with Nordstrom's) is only 10-12 blocks south of the gun shop on El Camino Real. I would suggest you give your wife a few hours of shopping and sneak to the gun shop on your own...

You will find the folks at Mike's shop very helpful and willing to spend time with a luger beginner if the shop is not too crowded.

Mike will be at Reno this weekend so you will only meet John and Ted if you do stop by. If you wait for Mike's return, he will probably show you a custom-made .45 luger pistol he makes on special order. His 1st. un-numbered prototype is usually in the shop when not at gun shows. He sells these .45 lugers for $ 15K...I think...

Just remember for any retail gunshop, their first line of business is to sell guns to make the overhead and profit...not necessarily to educate a beginning collector; and their pricing is usually a bit higher than a private-collector find...

If you are ever in the Walnut Creek area, another great C&R rifle and pistol gun shop is Mike Chance's place :

http://www.cccfirearms.com/

Sorry you cannot join us for the Reno gun show. Reno has others in April and August of each year. Here is the link showing the 2004 show schedule :

http://www.bigrenoshow.com/

Regards,

Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

CG of MP · 11-07-2003, 10:37 PM

Greetings Again Pete,

I am starting to second guess my plans after reading your note... I guess I probably should save this for another weekend. Mike sounds busy as heck.... I'd love to see the prototype and would be fun to talk to him personally.

Ponder ponder... The Cow Palace snack and jerkey sh.. I mean gunshow is this weekend too... maybe I WILL save Krauses for a week or two.. I think you are right.

As for my wife... I am truly blessed. I married my very best friend, and she married hers. We share our spare time and hobbies. (Thank the lord she does not like sewing or that sort of thing.)

As for sending her to a mall to "go shopping"... Sir, I gotta thank you for your kind input and hopes to save my sanity, but you see, she would not hear of that. SHE wants me to get this thing and is 100 percent behind it.

While she may not be able to talk balistics, nomenclature, or even know which make is which... I am certain that she would sooner put icecubes in my side of the bed than be sent to the ghetto of a shopping mall...

You see, she has a way with guns too.

Allow me to present to you exhibit one which she shot with my Nor-Cal Precision rifle....

Given that she can hold her own in the same way with a handgun, I submit for your consideration that Nordstroms would be a punishment, not a panacea for making her happy when I am searching for 'our' Luger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Finally your points about retail are well taken... I just wish I knew enough to know the difference between whether *I* was being taken or not...

Maybe Mike will deign to take pitty on a first timer :-)

Thanks for all of the fine ideas...

Charles

10-30-2003, 08:49 AM	#1
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	A different Prespective Hi CG and welcome, At the risk of going counter to the advice you have received here (all of which was good, I just have a different point of view) I would suggest you take part of that $600 and buy Jan Still's excellent trilogy FIRST. Then begin saving. Save, save, save. Then when you have a respectable war chest, find a COLLECTOR, not a dealer (dealers have overhead expenses, gota make a profit and, yee gads, some are actually dishonest...you generally get more gun per $ from a collector for this simple economic reason..no disrespect to the dealers who are Forum members intended)and begin discussions about a purchase from that collector or another collector they know and recommend. You want to buy the absolute best you can find. Relax on the budget; you can ALWAYS get more money as long as you are employed and the guvmint keeps the presses running at the Bureau of Printing and Engraving, but finding top quality Lugers is rapidly becoming very difficult. What location, location, location is to real estate, condition, condition, condition is to lugers. And you may wish to search through some back issues of the forum for my Forensics-based inspection and examination tips so that you will know what you are looking for and at and, hopefully not be on the prey side of the Luger collector predator/prey continuum. My zwei pfennigs, Flame away All. Tom A

10-30-2003, 10:48 AM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Have to agree with both. But, I have dealt with both and if you can find a reasonably honest collector, you are ahead of the game, plus they have the TIME to make friends and TEACH you. This forum has widened my circle of friends, and I am picky as hell about who I make as friends. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-01-2003, 02:53 PM	#8
CG of MP User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CCCPalifornia Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Greetings Gentlemen, Thank you for the insightful perspectives.... I appreciate all input even if it muddies up the waters of my mind even further. Tom, though I am about to derail your ideas insofar as my situation is concerned, I completely agree with the premise you posted and that has been echoed by others here. It really IS condition that makes a difference, not only in value generally, but also in pride of ownership. I know this first hand because the first M1 I got (the one I made the M1 Garand Website using) was pretty rough.. though I love it and would not sell it (chiefly because I did SO much with it in making the photos and such) it does not have nearly as much of the 'cool' factor that a SUPER condition all original M1 has that was part of what I got for helping the CMP out with their site. SADLY However, real life comes into play... The 600 dollar figure for a Luger is pretty well hard coded for me - at least for the next couple of years... In fact it is a little bit of a stretch :-) My wife and I talked this over and when we complete the website we are currently working on, we'll have the money to do this, but no more for a while. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> I DO want to shoot it and I DO want to learn about it so getting a lesser condition piece NOW rather than waiting 2 years or more to get my first Luger is probably a better compromise. Of course, maybe I'll get really lucky and some Luger dealer will want us to build him a website and pay me in Lugers.. but the chances are probably better that I'll trip over a bag of gold nuggets when I leave work Monday. In any case, you are completely right in what you say, but I really do not want to wait for 2 years to get a Luger... Hmmmm then again, maybe I could just feed one of the kids only once a week and... <img border="0" alt="[icon501]" title="" src="graemlins/icon501.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" /> Okay okay I guess the wife vetoed THAT idea... Well anyhow... you guys are completely right but my situation is something of an exception. And in truth I love the kids enough to go Luger hungry myself for eternity if needed I am also quite fine with purchase from either a dealer or an individual or a collector. I am puchasing the 'gun' not the story or the seller's credentials. I ahve met several great people in the gun biz and several rats. They represent both dealers and collectors. Most appreciate the thoughtful responses. Charles - still looking! PS: policeluger - send the photo to me if you like and I'll temporarily house it on memorableplaces.com and post it here for you. __________________ Charles of MemorablePlaces Consulting -- charles@memorableplaces.com Webmaster for: Jardine's Custom 1911 handguns Valtro USA Nor-Cal Precision Jerry Rice Riflesmith Tactical Intervention Specialists CMP (some content not webmaster) The M1 Garand - An American Companion In Three Wars

11-02-2003, 01:34 AM	#10
CG of MP User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CCCPalifornia Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the tip Pete! I am pretty well stuck on wanting a military 9mm... I loaded the page however and it certainly does look nice! By the way are you local to the bay area? Take care, Charles __________________ Charles of MemorablePlaces Consulting -- charles@memorableplaces.com Webmaster for: Jardine's Custom 1911 handguns Valtro USA Nor-Cal Precision Jerry Rice Riflesmith Tactical Intervention Specialists CMP (some content not webmaster) The M1 Garand - An American Companion In Three Wars

11-02-2003, 10:18 AM	#11
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Charles, you might want to check this site, I know that Russ had several Lugers for sale for good prices and he is a great guy, and won't screw you. Also, I know it is easier for you to post to your own site, but there is an upload here on this site that isn't that hard to learn or use, and then we know the pictures will be hosted here for 3 or 4 months... ...and then we as administrators can lighten, help, modify, etc., on the pictures if needed. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

10-30-2003, 10:25 AM	#2
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Ver sound advice, but with one stroke of the key board you did away with all dealers and made it sound that any collector was great too deal with. I have seen more fly by night "collectors" set up and gun shows, or in monthly gun papers that will tell you any lie too make the sale. The more novice you are, the more the shade tree collector will take you for a ride, and try getting a three day inspection after the sale and the "collector" is miles down the road. Read/learn and buy books prior too investing. Ask around, who people trust, but do not think all dealers are dishonest and all "collectors" are honest.

10-30-2003, 10:57 AM	#4
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	Policeluger, I did not mean to suggest that ALL dealers were dishonest or that all collectors were upright, God-fearing bastions of rectitude. There are diamonds and there are stones in both groups. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> One would be naive in the extreme to assume that possession of a Type 03 FFL confers any degree of good charatcter. There are some collectors that I know who I have doubts about. Its that Prey/predator thing I mentioned. You have to be careful in m you trust. Having said that, I still maintain that the better value is generally going to be in buying from someone who is not trying to make a living from our hobby. Tom A.

10-30-2003, 12:33 PM	#5
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	I remember once, perhaps about ten years ago at the L.A. Great Western Gun Show, sadly no more. I had just bought a still treasured Weimar police rig from FGS, perhaps one of the big dealers you had in mind in your first post here. About an hour later I ran into Tom Heller, who at that time appraised my new $500 rig at $1,400. It was one of the great buys of all my years of collecting, and it was from one of the bigger dealers I still trust. Yes Ed you are correct, but Ralph Shattuck has spent hours sharing his knowledge with several of us that I know of and has never asked for a dime in return. Its all fun and as soon as I learn how too post a picture of my new 6x7 bull elk in the hunting thread here on the forum I will, I was going too carry a Luger in my back pack and pose for a picture of my bull while holding the Luger. But remembering how many fall I take per mile of hiking, I was not going too risk damaging the gun. As it was after the hunt I found a small piece of my rifle stock chiped out. P/S the shop just picked up a Colt mod 1851 .36 cal Navy, 1869 year of production in fair/good condition, for sale.

10-30-2003, 03:07 PM	#6
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	I share your assessment of FGS. Tom A.

11-01-2003, 03:40 AM	#7
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	I also like FGS and have enjoyed many conversations with Ken and Joe. I remember once seeing Doug get all excited over a find at a OGCA meeting. It was a brass flashlight that could be afixed to the barrel of a Luger and had a wire that would run to a battery pack on a belt. I kept thinking that this guy who has such a big collection of rare accessories to Lugers can still get excited about finding something different and unusual. I would bet that Doug has a bunch of rare stuff buried away that few people would even know what it is. Ken once told me that they are trying to take an inventory of Dougs stuff but that it is nearly impossible. But I agree with the original premise of this thread by TomA. Too many guys go to gun shows and go straight to the big dealers tables without even looking at the tables of the little guys who have a mixture of five or six guns with a treasure partially hidden in the corner of their table. Then I have seen the little sellers quiver in their boots while trying to sell a Luger. They don't have a clue about what they have and don't know if they have the gun priced too high or too low. They go to the big dealers tables and see the prices and figure that that is the price to put on their one Luger. Then the gun just sits there with nobody even looking at it. They just don't realise that sometimes the dealer doesn't know what price to put on a given Luger either. More often than not, they just pack up their Lugers and take them home without any sales. The big dealers are willing to wait for their price. The little guy doesn't want to wait. Simpson used to hand out little booklets of Lugers that he had for sale. I kept them. I think that Simpson had a love affair with Lugers that had grip safeties. He had them so over priced that I bet that he still has them in inventory after many years. I got burned on an 1900 American Eagle when I was first starting out because I used Simpsons price books as a reference to buy from an individual. I still have that AE and its still pretty, but I paid way too much at the time. I could also get into a very long discussion about appraising and appraisors. I am not pointing a finger at anyone in particular. But appraising a Luger can sometimes be difficult. Is there really such a thing as an expert on ALL Lugers? Emotions come into play. Is this a gun that the expert wants to buy? Is he just pricing it for conversation sake? Is he just pricing it while wasting some time and does not care what the seller gets for the gun? There are many other reasons that someone would appraise someone elses gun. Basically, it still boils down to what a buyer is willing to pay for the gun, if the seller can find that right person and how long the seller is willing to wait to find that buyer. I have guns that I wonder where my head was and I have seen guns sell for prices that made me wonder where that buyers head was at. Its a jungle out there. Big Norm

11-01-2003, 05:33 PM	#9
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Charles, There is a very decent luger for sale for $ 695 at the following web site : http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=462 If I did not have a 1920 commercial luger already in my collection, I would want this one and would not worry about shooting it... (And as always, I have no financial connection with the sale of this pistol...) Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-02-2003, 11:24 AM	#12
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Charles, Yes...I live in the East Bay and another LF member, Doc. Herb Fisher lives in the Bay Area... Every couple of months the two of us get together and meet at Mike Krause's gun shop in San Mateo to share lugers/stuff that we recently bought and to see what Krause might have for sale in his shop. We are also planning on attending the Reno gun show which runs Friday 11-14-03 through Sunday 11-16-03. There are usually 3-6 guys from the LF in attendance at the show and we get together for dinner on Friday night. If you can make the show, it is a good one for lugers and one can learn alot and you are welcomed to join us and join us for dinner. Another LF member, Russ Withem, always has table(s) and allows us to use his as our "base camp" during the show. Here is the show link : http://www.bigrenoshow.com/ Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-03-2003, 09:32 PM	#13
CG of MP User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CCCPalifornia Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Greetings Mr. Tinker, I am afraid that your link did not work. what site were you refering to? As for posting photos.. I was just trying to help a couple people that had asked. Pete, thanks for the kind invite to Reno.. I'd love to come, but a police chief I worked for over a decade ago is coming into town and I had to cancel the tentative plans that I had to go to Reno and meet up with you guys. Very unfortunate in Lugerville, but he may want me to do a website for him (coffee busioness?!?) and I have not seen him in a decade... What is the name of the shop in San Mateo? Do they have lots of Luger goodies? I'd consider stopping in there.. Do they have a website I can browse? Time for a Google search I think... Charles __________________ Charles of MemorablePlaces Consulting -- charles@memorableplaces.com Webmaster for: Jardine's Custom 1911 handguns Valtro USA Nor-Cal Precision Jerry Rice Riflesmith Tactical Intervention Specialists CMP (some content not webmaster) The M1 Garand - An American Companion In Three Wars

11-03-2003, 09:46 PM	#14
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Charles, Here is the link to Mike Krause's shop in San Mateo, CA : http://www.krausewerk.com I think they are only open Tues-Sat, opening at 12 noon each day. They do not post inventory on the web site. They recently took over the entire 2nd. story of the building and now all the C&R pistols and long rifles are now very well displayed. They have some specialty rooms as well such as knives/dagger/swords, a book room, and a Militaria room. Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-04-2003, 12:40 AM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,915 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,506 Times in 2,080 Posts	Sorry, when I said this site, I actually meant, this site. There is a section on buying and selling here, and that is all I meant. I knew you were just trying to help and I am sure that John D appreciates it, but past experience has made me leery of others having links to their site. The only reason is that some times the guy posts a photo and its one of those king size ones, where you scroll back and forth, back and forth, so was just mentioning it. I am sure that your website abilities are far removed from that example, and didn't mean to say anything bad, Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

11-04-2003, 06:56 AM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Another reason to post your photos uploaded here Charles is that when John D. does his backup of the site, the photo remains with the post. If you should change your ISP for instance, or even the name of your website, the link from a post to the photo would be lost... I always recommend that you upload the photos directly to the Lugerforum... the link in on the left frame of the homepage... and the homepage link is at the bottom of all discussion pages. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-05-2003, 04:34 AM	#17
CG of MP User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CCCPalifornia Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	raises hands against the stones and rocks Okay guys! Okay! :-) I'll never again post anyone else's photos but my own with links to my site :-) :-) Just as a datapoint, the chance of my domain changing is nill, I have MemorablePlaces.com registered for about 10 years if I rememeber right. In any event, I understand and generally concur with your ratinalle and will leave others to do the customary uploads themselves. -------------- Back to my quest...if I may! Pete - Thanks for the tip... I called Mike Krause's shop in San Mateo and spoke to a nice gentleman by the name of John for about 10 min. They may or may not have something that I could use, but the price sounds like it will be a BIT over what I hoped to spend. John said he will not be in Saturday but that Ted will and that Ted was an interesting character to talk to. I asked what that meant and heard lauging in the background. Seems the consensus is that if you ask Ted the time he tells you how to build a clock. Just what I probably need here. :-) In any event... after talking to them, it sounds like a trip to their shop is in order just because the place sounds very cool! I thought I knew most of the area gunstores, and Imbert and Smithers isnt too far from them... but I guess not. Sooo... I am probably gonna pack the kids and the wife into the car and head over there Saturday just to snoop around. They sound pretty busy and Mike just got back from Vegas and has another personal item in the fire, so I doubt I'll find anything laid out in anticipation of my needs this trip.. but it sounds like there is a lot of militaria there and some neet historical things to show the kids anyhow. I'll probably end up making a trip back later. ---------------- *QUESTION* Has anyone heard of or had any bad dealings with this individual? If so please send me an email mailto:tenarius@memorableplaces.comtenarius@memorableplaces.com</a> and let me know. Heck if you have had good experiences let me know that too! As this person is semi-local to me, it would be a real positive thing if I could buy from him, (prices and all things being similar) but this is still a blind item to me.... --------------- I mean ZERO disrespect to MK and I am only trying to gague my options here. In any event, thanks for the ongoing help folks. If there is something of interest to me I'll ask to post photographs. Also if they will allow it I may just get somme pics of other goodies in the shop if anyone is interested... Thanks! Charles __________________ Charles of MemorablePlaces Consulting -- charles@memorableplaces.com Webmaster for: Jardine's Custom 1911 handguns Valtro USA Nor-Cal Precision Jerry Rice Riflesmith Tactical Intervention Specialists CMP (some content not webmaster) The M1 Garand - An American Companion In Three Wars

11-05-2003, 10:11 AM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Photos of Mike Krause's shop and any goodies he might currently have would be very interesting. Please post any photos you take... Especially any photos he allows you to take of one of the .45 Caliber Luger reproductions that he manufactures @ $15K each... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-07-2003, 08:28 PM	#19
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	Hello Charles, Shopping in gun shops and having a wife present just seem to be diamterically opposed forces in nature that seemingly do not come smoothly and calmly together... The Hillsdale Mall (with Nordstrom's) is only 10-12 blocks south of the gun shop on El Camino Real. I would suggest you give your wife a few hours of shopping and sneak to the gun shop on your own... You will find the folks at Mike's shop very helpful and willing to spend time with a luger beginner if the shop is not too crowded. Mike will be at Reno this weekend so you will only meet John and Ted if you do stop by. If you wait for Mike's return, he will probably show you a custom-made .45 luger pistol he makes on special order. His 1st. un-numbered prototype is usually in the shop when not at gun shows. He sells these .45 lugers for $ 15K...I think... Just remember for any retail gunshop, their first line of business is to sell guns to make the overhead and profit...not necessarily to educate a beginning collector; and their pricing is usually a bit higher than a private-collector find... If you are ever in the Walnut Creek area, another great C&R rifle and pistol gun shop is Mike Chance's place : http://www.cccfirearms.com/ Sorry you cannot join us for the Reno gun show. Reno has others in April and August of each year. Here is the link showing the 2004 show schedule : http://www.bigrenoshow.com/ Regards, Pete... <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

11-07-2003, 10:37 PM	#20
CG of MP User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: CCCPalifornia Posts: 25 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Greetings Again Pete, I am starting to second guess my plans after reading your note... I guess I probably should save this for another weekend. Mike sounds busy as heck.... I'd love to see the prototype and would be fun to talk to him personally. Ponder ponder... The Cow Palace snack and jerkey sh.. I mean gunshow is this weekend too... maybe I WILL save Krauses for a week or two.. I think you are right. As for my wife... I am truly blessed. I married my very best friend, and she married hers. We share our spare time and hobbies. (Thank the lord she does not like sewing or that sort of thing.) As for sending her to a mall to "go shopping"... Sir, I gotta thank you for your kind input and hopes to save my sanity, but you see, she would not hear of that. SHE wants me to get this thing and is 100 percent behind it. While she may not be able to talk balistics, nomenclature, or even know which make is which... I am certain that she would sooner put icecubes in my side of the bed than be sent to the ghetto of a shopping mall... You see, she has a way with guns too. Allow me to present to you exhibit one which she shot with my Nor-Cal Precision rifle.... Given that she can hold her own in the same way with a handgun, I submit for your consideration that Nordstroms would be a punishment, not a panacea for making her happy when I am searching for 'our' Luger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Finally your points about retail are well taken... I just wish I knew enough to know the difference between whether I was being taken or not... Maybe Mike will deign to take pitty on a first timer :-) Thanks for all of the fine ideas... Charles __________________ Charles of MemorablePlaces Consulting -- charles@memorableplaces.com Webmaster for: Jardine's Custom 1911 handguns Valtro USA Nor-Cal Precision Jerry Rice Riflesmith Tactical Intervention Specialists CMP (some content not webmaster) The M1 Garand - An American Companion In Three Wars