Help on identifying a DWM frame

Ari1915 · 03-23-2024, 09:49 AM

Hello All!
I was trying to identify a DWM frame accordingly "The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols" book and got stuck....

-The frame has the serial-# a8223
-The frame well shows a "N", could also be a "N" in a circle... and the letter "h"
-Near the trigger pivot is a "A"
-The rear frame shows "1" (could be an unclear "A"), "D" and "S"
-Also I recognized on the left side heavy processing marks which are not visible on the right side.

Any ideas, what frame I have in hands? Any help is much appreciated!

Thanks!

ithacaartist · 03-23-2024, 10:45 AM

These marks were stamped by workers during manufacture.

Kiwi · 03-23-2024, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

These marks were stamped by workers during manufacture.

An early American equivalent would be "Kilroy was here"

Vlim · 03-23-2024, 04:09 PM

Not really. These markings were there for a reason.
Workers got paid for the correct execution of their assigned production steps and were not paid if they worked on faulty or unchecked previous steps.

So:
Worker executes a step.
Step is checked, measured, approved.
Next worker executes next step on an approved part.

Karl · 03-23-2024, 07:35 PM

Sven,

The stock lug and hold-open (just visible in first photo), indicate that it could be as early as later 1913 production (both changes in place by this serial #), unless it has the re-enforced rear frame and modified main spring housing implemented in later 1914 (need photos of these areas to tell). The visible machine marks on the toggle ears suggest, but do not prove, production 1915 to 1918 (more likely 1917-18). If the grips are serialized to the frame, are they walnut or beech? If they are beech then it would strongly indicate 1917 or 1918 production although some walnut grips were still used in 1917-18, and a few had beech grips in 1916.

KFS

Ari1915 · 03-24-2024, 05:23 AM

Karl,
thank you very much for your reply. My rear frame housing looks like this:

Ari1915 · 03-24-2024, 05:28 AM

There came to set of grips with the frame. One set has proof marks on both grips and a serial number on one site. The second set does not have proof marks but a serial number on the left and right grip. Don't think they belong to the frame from the beginning.

Karl · 03-24-2024, 10:15 AM

Sven,

That is the re-enforced frame, so later-1914 or later. The grips only provide dating information if they are original to the frame. The one set seems to be marked "23" so they may be the originals. They appear in the photo to be walnut.

KFS

Ari1915 · 03-24-2024, 10:30 AM

Hi Karl,
thanks for all the info.
Sven

03-23-2024, 09:49 AM	#1
Ari1915 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 10 Thanks: 9 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Help on identifying a DWM frame Hello All! I was trying to identify a DWM frame accordingly "The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols" book and got stuck.... -The frame has the serial-# a8223 -The frame well shows a "N", could also be a "N" in a circle... and the letter "h" -Near the trigger pivot is a "A" -The rear frame shows "1" (could be an unclear "A"), "D" and "S" -Also I recognized on the left side heavy processing marks which are not visible on the right side. Any ideas, what frame I have in hands? Any help is much appreciated! Thanks! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Ari1915; 03-23-2024 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Letter Twister.... DMW instead DWM

03-23-2024, 10:45 AM	#2
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,343 Thanks: 7,264 Thanked 2,576 Times in 1,364 Posts	These marks were stamped by workers during manufacture. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-24-2024, 05:23 AM	#6
Ari1915 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 10 Thanks: 9 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Karl, thank you very much for your reply. My rear frame housing looks like this: Attached Thumbnails

03-24-2024, 05:28 AM	#7
Ari1915 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 10 Thanks: 9 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	There came to set of grips with the frame. One set has proof marks on both grips and a serial number on one site. The second set does not have proof marks but a serial number on the left and right grip. Don't think they belong to the frame from the beginning. Attached Thumbnails

03-23-2024, 04:09 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Not really. These markings were there for a reason. Workers got paid for the correct execution of their assigned production steps and were not paid if they worked on faulty or unchecked previous steps. So: Worker executes a step. Step is checked, measured, approved. Next worker executes next step on an approved part.

03-23-2024, 07:35 PM	#5
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 520 Thanks: 0 Thanked 266 Times in 116 Posts	Sven, The stock lug and hold-open (just visible in first photo), indicate that it could be as early as later 1913 production (both changes in place by this serial #), unless it has the re-enforced rear frame and modified main spring housing implemented in later 1914 (need photos of these areas to tell). The visible machine marks on the toggle ears suggest, but do not prove, production 1915 to 1918 (more likely 1917-18). If the grips are serialized to the frame, are they walnut or beech? If they are beech then it would strongly indicate 1917 or 1918 production although some walnut grips were still used in 1917-18, and a few had beech grips in 1916. KFS

03-24-2024, 10:15 AM	#8
Karl Lifer - Twice Over Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Savannah Posts: 520 Thanks: 0 Thanked 266 Times in 116 Posts	Sven, That is the re-enforced frame, so later-1914 or later. The grips only provide dating information if they are original to the frame. The one set seems to be marked "23" so they may be the originals. They appear in the photo to be walnut. KFS

03-24-2024, 10:30 AM	#9
Ari1915 User Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Germany Posts: 10 Thanks: 9 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post	Hi Karl, thanks for all the info. Sven