A Navy Luger from the Belgique Resistance

John Sabato · 03-15-2004, 11:34 AM

These photographs were sent to me late last week with a request for assistance in finding a place to have this Luger restored. The story with this gun is that it was captured by the Resistance in Belgium during WW2 and the barrel was shortened <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> to make it more concealable...

It is definitely an interesting specimen...

I have already sent the names of two gunsmiths in Germany and one in Sweden where it may be properly restored, but If you know of a place in Belgium where this gun could be properly restored to full Navy configuration, please post it here.

Here are the excellent photos:

kidvett · 03-15-2004, 09:25 PM

My God !! WHAT A SHAME !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I guess they didnt have a choice...as they could have captured a PPK or HSc and leave this one alone....

MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

Big Norm · 03-16-2004, 12:20 AM

Aw Gee! Sniff sniff outright crying. No suggestions about restoring, but I really feel bad about this.
Big Norm

lugerholsterrepair · 03-16-2004, 01:20 AM

This pistol cannot be restored...Only another barrel installed. This is bad enough but what would be worse is to see the cut off end of an Imperial Navy holster...I have recently gotten several Navy Holsters into my shop where someone took a knife to them. Holsters for these beautiful pistols are quite rare. Stocks even more so. Jerry Burney

Ron Wood · 03-16-2004, 01:38 AM

Actually, it can be "restored". Rare cut off Colt single-actions are routinely "restored" by welding on a section of original barrel. This preserves original markings on the orignal barrel and is done so skillfully by some restorers that it is very hard to detect except by x-ray or magniflux. It is an expensive proposition. However, beyond the expense, the worst part of this otherwise legtimate attempt to obtain the original configuration is that frequently these restorations are passed off as completely original, and now we are talking VERY high dollar fakery.

John Sabato · 03-16-2004, 10:56 AM

Ron, based on the email from the current owner, and I believe a descendent of the original resistance member, I believe the sole intent for "restoration" is simple to make the gun completely functional, and not an attempt to deceive anyone... This gun would be pretty useless in it's current condition EXCEPT to an undercover resistance movement, and I don't think they are currently very active

I hope they can get it repaired so they can use the sights... The owner initally asked if the gun could be imported into the USA for repairs and then returned to Europe, and my suggestion was to avoid that kind of customs hassle by doing it over there. I figured that Herb Werle, or Hakan Spuhr or KTS could assist them without damaging the receiver, but the availability of the proper height front sight base on a 6 inch barrel may be a problem to find even in Europe.

Vlim · 03-16-2004, 12:36 PM

Hi,

Let me know if I can assist in any way. I'm based some 5 km from the Belgian border.

Navy · 03-16-2004, 01:55 PM

There should be no real need to get into any rigamarole with ATF so long as only the cannon was shipped to the US for repair. The cannon is not considered a firearm. I can recommend several smiths who can re-barrel or do the welding trick.

Tom A.

Big Norm · 03-17-2004, 03:37 PM

My question would be if the gun would be functionable? The welding of the barrel would leave the rifling out of wack. Then there would be a question of the integrety of the barrel after welding. Johns concern over the sights would also be a concern of mine, but a minor concern. The Luger could very well be made to LOOK good. But would it be safe to shoot and make a good shooter?

Just my thoughts.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 03-17-2004, 03:48 PM

Norm, the short answer is yes... but it all depends on the technique used to restore the "looks".

If the exterior were to be restored by the welding of an appropriate Navy barrel stub, and appropriate surface grinding were applied to recreate the exterior contours, then the bore could be relined to make it shootable.

Not the method I would use... It will never be original again. I would just obtain or make a proper contour and front sight base 6 inch barrel and have it installed, chambered and headspaced... that would be the least expensive route. and it would make a DANDY shooter. Wish it were mine!... but then I am not a collector of collectibles, I only collect the facts about them so I can share them... and of course, photographs of them.

Vlim · 03-18-2004, 08:18 AM

Another, even simpler idea:

Buy an extra upper barrel/receiver combo (either 4" standard or 6" navy) and shoot with that instead. This original resistance-rework barrel/receiver combo can then be stored and kept as part of the gun's history.

Best of both worlds, so to speak

Lugerdoc · 03-18-2004, 09:19 AM

Rick, I agree with you. I've seen several Navies and Artilleries that had their long barrels shortened for carry in a standard (4" BBL) PO8 holster. That way all parts of this luger remain original, abeit a rework. In fact, I do have an original ramp and front sight that came loose from a similarly cut M06 Navy barrel, if you want to have one of the European smiths silversoder it on. TH

karmast · 03-26-2004, 02:15 PM

I would leave it as it is.. because the cut is an interesting part of the history of the gun.

It would be the same as trying to restore these Weimar-Republic-Navys, which were cutted down due to the Versailles-Contract, which prohibited handguns with a barrel lenght over 10cm..
It would be also a pitty to "restore" them, get the Weimar markings out and "restamp" it as if it would be a Imperial one

03-15-2004, 11:34 AM	#1
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	A Navy Luger from the Belgique Resistance These photographs were sent to me late last week with a request for assistance in finding a place to have this Luger restored. The story with this gun is that it was captured by the Resistance in Belgium during WW2 and the barrel was shortened <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> to make it more concealable... It is definitely an interesting specimen... I have already sent the names of two gunsmiths in Germany and one in Sweden where it may be properly restored, but If you know of a place in Belgium where this gun could be properly restored to full Navy configuration, please post it here. Here are the excellent photos: __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-16-2004, 01:20 AM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,933 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	This pistol cannot be restored...Only another barrel installed. This is bad enough but what would be worse is to see the cut off end of an Imperial Navy holster...I have recently gotten several Navy Holsters into my shop where someone took a knife to them. Holsters for these beautiful pistols are quite rare. Stocks even more so. Jerry Burney __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

03-16-2004, 01:38 AM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Actually, it can be "restored". Rare cut off Colt single-actions are routinely "restored" by welding on a section of original barrel. This preserves original markings on the orignal barrel and is done so skillfully by some restorers that it is very hard to detect except by x-ray or magniflux. It is an expensive proposition. However, beyond the expense, the worst part of this otherwise legtimate attempt to obtain the original configuration is that frequently these restorations are passed off as completely original, and now we are talking VERY high dollar fakery. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-16-2004, 10:56 AM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Ron, based on the email from the current owner, and I believe a descendent of the original resistance member, I believe the sole intent for "restoration" is simple to make the gun completely functional, and not an attempt to deceive anyone... This gun would be pretty useless in it's current condition EXCEPT to an undercover resistance movement, and I don't think they are currently very active I hope they can get it repaired so they can use the sights... The owner initally asked if the gun could be imported into the USA for repairs and then returned to Europe, and my suggestion was to avoid that kind of customs hassle by doing it over there. I figured that Herb Werle, or Hakan Spuhr or KTS could assist them without damaging the receiver, but the availability of the proper height front sight base on a 6 inch barrel may be a problem to find even in Europe. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-17-2004, 03:48 PM	#10
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Norm, the short answer is yes... but it all depends on the technique used to restore the "looks". If the exterior were to be restored by the welding of an appropriate Navy barrel stub, and appropriate surface grinding were applied to recreate the exterior contours, then the bore could be relined to make it shootable. Not the method I would use... It will never be original again. I would just obtain or make a proper contour and front sight base 6 inch barrel and have it installed, chambered and headspaced... that would be the least expensive route. and it would make a DANDY shooter. Wish it were mine!... but then I am not a collector of collectibles, I only collect the facts about them so I can share them... and of course, photographs of them. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-15-2004, 09:25 PM	#2
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	My God !! WHAT A SHAME !! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> I guess they didnt have a choice...as they could have captured a PPK or HSc and leave this one alone.... MARK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

03-16-2004, 12:20 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Aw Gee! Sniff sniff outright crying. No suggestions about restoring, but I really feel bad about this. Big Norm

03-16-2004, 12:36 PM	#7
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Let me know if I can assist in any way. I'm based some 5 km from the Belgian border.

03-16-2004, 01:55 PM	#8
Navy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dc 'burbs in Virginia Posts: 2,482 Thanks: 0 Thanked 16 Times in 10 Posts	There should be no real need to get into any rigamarole with ATF so long as only the cannon was shipped to the US for repair. The cannon is not considered a firearm. I can recommend several smiths who can re-barrel or do the welding trick. Tom A.

03-17-2004, 03:37 PM	#9
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	My question would be if the gun would be functionable? The welding of the barrel would leave the rifling out of wack. Then there would be a question of the integrety of the barrel after welding. Johns concern over the sights would also be a concern of mine, but a minor concern. The Luger could very well be made to LOOK good. But would it be safe to shoot and make a good shooter? Just my thoughts. Big Norm

03-18-2004, 08:18 AM	#11
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Another, even simpler idea: Buy an extra upper barrel/receiver combo (either 4" standard or 6" navy) and shoot with that instead. This original resistance-rework barrel/receiver combo can then be stored and kept as part of the gun's history. Best of both worlds, so to speak

03-18-2004, 09:19 AM	#12
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Rick, I agree with you. I've seen several Navies and Artilleries that had their long barrels shortened for carry in a standard (4" BBL) PO8 holster. That way all parts of this luger remain original, abeit a rework. In fact, I do have an original ramp and front sight that came loose from a similarly cut M06 Navy barrel, if you want to have one of the European smiths silversoder it on. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

03-26-2004, 02:15 PM	#13
karmast User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 57 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I would leave it as it is.. because the cut is an interesting part of the history of the gun. It would be the same as trying to restore these Weimar-Republic-Navys, which were cutted down due to the Versailles-Contract, which prohibited handguns with a barrel lenght over 10cm.. It would be also a pitty to "restore" them, get the Weimar markings out and "restamp" it as if it would be a Imperial one __________________ Every Luger tells a story - but you have to find out what it says..